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Input Needed: Reducing the Trope Repair Shop Backlog

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CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#76: Aug 3rd 2011 at 8:36:34 AM

[up]that is why it would work best with a cap on the number of threads active at any one time. It is a powerful incentive for people to actually resolve the current issues so they can move onto something else.

I know some people argue that it could lead to obstructiveness, but realistically that can't happen. One person might want to be obstructive, but one person cannot overrule consensus. You'd need to have a solid group arguing to cause a delay, and any issue that a solid group can coalesce around is one that is a genuine issue that should be being discussed.

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#77: Aug 3rd 2011 at 8:36:40 AM

Cryptic Mirror, #74: Oh, ok, I see you're coming at it from a direction I wasn't considering...

That has possibilities.

We'd still have a lot of threads being shuttled back and forth between the two sections, because for a pot of folks the first thing they consider if a trope isn't working well is "Rename!", and it's only when TRS starts really looking that we realize that the problem isn't only the name, it's the description, or multiple tropes mashed together,or duplicate tropes, or, well, you know.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:37:21 AM by Madrugada

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#78: Aug 3rd 2011 at 8:40:38 AM

Yeah, I'd worry that a dedicated rename forum is just going to look at the name and not the underlying issues. Most tropes that come in for renames don't need renames. They need better definitions, missing supertropes, a laconic that isn't completely misleading, or even just example and wik clean up, but the name isn't the cause of all ills.

I think encouraging people to only focus on the name is going to make sure that everything else stays broken. It's like encouraging band-aids for broken legs.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#79: Aug 3rd 2011 at 8:43:00 AM

[up][up]I do see quite a degree of co-operation needed. I don't think that would be a bad thing though, the two forums would work hand-in-hand on certain subjects and I think this is one of those cases where each forum doing its part then passing it on to the other would help them concentrate on the unique strengths of different types of tropers/editors/denizens.

There may well be instances that someone proposes a rename, but after a spell in the renames forum, it is decided a rename wouldn't work and it gets passed to TRS to do a rewrite instead. Then the TRS would do that bit while the renames forum processes the next rename proposal instead of letting rewrite stagnate. And of course vice-versa, a proposed rewrite develops into the rename which can be passed off to the renamers and lets the TRS get onto the next issue rather than let itself get distracted by the shiny.

[up] I give the renamers more credit than that. Renames would still get discussed, voted for, etc same as now. And if it was obvious a rename wasn't the right thing it would be passed over to TRS. There would be the odd case where they get carried away, and teething problems, as with any new process. But anomalous issues, and teething problems would arise in any new initiative. I wouldn't forsee much in the way of problems after an initial bedding down period.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:45:57 AM by CrypticMirror

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#80: Aug 3rd 2011 at 8:45:19 AM

But then we'd basically be playing thread ping-pong. Instead of taking care of everything in one neat thread we'd have to continually bounce things back and forth and we'd wind up with multiple threads trying to fix the same trope in different directions. We all ready have enough issues with Image Picking threads needing to be put on indefinite hold while TRS threads figure out what the trope is. You want to multiply that delay again? I thought we were trying to make things faster.

Because you can't do both at once. If you're changing the definition while the rename is going on then you're going to end up with a name that doesn't work. And what if the TRS decides to make the trope match the original name while the Rename forum decides to go in a completely different direction? It's divorcing page names from their content. That's how we end up with bad names.

And if we can't do both at once, then what's the point of having two forums? Just being able to tag and label threads in one forum would do the same thing. Then you could just view only renames or what have you.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:48:29 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#81: Aug 3rd 2011 at 8:51:09 AM

[up]That is unlikely. there would be co-operation, and passing over tropes certainly, in fact that is the great strength of a dual system, and as counter-intuitive as it sounds it would speed things up. Industry does it all the time, and invariably with much the same fears and worries about implementation.

Ping-pong would be unlikely, it would be a very rare event that ended up in a constant back and forth, and if it is then that would indicative of a much more serious problem with that particular issue. All the better to identify those too. Most would be discussed then either resolved at first point of discussion, or found unsuitable and passed over, then resolved there.

There may be a slight issue during a bedding down period as a new system/process beds down and finds it's audience/participants. But that takes place in any reform. The trick is not to get het-up about possible teething issues and focus on the longer term 2month+ outcomes.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:52:04 AM by CrypticMirror

shimaspawn from Here and Now Since: May, 2010 Relationship Status: In your bunk
#82: Aug 3rd 2011 at 8:56:38 AM

I'm not talking about teething issues. These are current on going problems we have with just TRS and image picking being split. Having two threads going at the same time means one of them has to pause while the other one gets sorted. At that point, what is the point of having two forums?

You're either going to have to follow two different threads, one in the rename and one in the TRS, the former of which is ALWAYS going to have to pause for the later to finish. So you're just going end up with a huge backlog there that falls off the front page and is lost before the definition fix is done. Or you're going to be bouncing threads back and forth like ping-pong balls.

And ping-pong is very likely because that's the normal path that a lot of rename threads go through. They start as rename. Then they realise that there's a deeper issue and they go to fix that. Then they go back to rename and realise that they can't pick a new name because there's a another issue that no one thought of. And back and forth and back and forth and that's why huge rename threads get so big.

You can't say it's not going to happen when it's what already does happen. Having two forums isn't going to magically change any of that.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:58:04 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#83: Aug 3rd 2011 at 9:05:05 AM

I believe that she's suggesting that a trope would be in either "Rename" or "Needs work other than a rename" but not both at the same time (Exclusive OR) .If it's proposed for a rename, and that group of people decide that it's not the name that's the problem, they'd hand it over to the "needs work" group completely, not keep it there as well.

The only way that we'd get ping-ponging in that case is if both groups think that the problem falls under the other section's purview — the people in the Rename section think it's the definition that's the problem; the people in the Needs Work section think that the problem is the name.

If that's what she's suggesting, there would be very few tropes that are so badly broken that they'd need work from both sections, and I can't think of any where they'd need to be open in both sections at once.

ETA: Gender fixed. — I'll try to remember, but if I forget again, I apologize in advance

edited 4th Aug '11 4:59:24 AM by Madrugada

Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#84: Aug 3rd 2011 at 9:07:32 AM

That might work. Yes, there's that possible problem of everyone passing it to other forums, but as long as only one is open at a time, that sounds doable.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
CrypticMirror Cryptic Mirror from Scotland Since: Jan, 2001
#85: Aug 3rd 2011 at 9:09:41 AM

[edit: yeah, what Madrugada said, and much more clearly and concisely than me as well TBH. Oh, it's She, not he, though please. But yes, exactly that.]

I don't know about image pickin. I rarely go there and it seems to be a really different kettle of fish entirely.

[this section can be ignored: ninja'd] that isn't ping-pong that is process (ping-pong would be renames saying it doesn't need one and TRS saying it needs rename passing it back, to have renames...etc and caught in a loop without reaching a conclusion). Yes a rename would need to pause, or indeed cease if a trope can be fixed without one (in fact one of the activities renames would have is debating if a rename is needed). That is a good thing, and why you wouldn't have a thread active in both at the same time. What you are seeing is just the same tangle occurring at the same times, only in different forums. The proposer of the change would pick which forum s/he thinks it would be best in and puts it up for discussion. Any proposal to hand it over to the other forum would depend on it's discussion-outcome there. Process.

If it can be fixed without rename then that is clear indicator a rename isn't needed. The reason the rename threads get so big is that renames, redefinitions, and loads of other stuff all try to get done at once and everyone gets in each other's way. Clear focus on singular issues get resolved much quicker than multiple issues all being done at once. At the moment what we are seeing is the triumph of activity over achievement.

edited 3rd Aug '11 9:16:07 AM by CrypticMirror

troacctid (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#86: Aug 3rd 2011 at 10:39:16 PM

*raises hand*

So, why do we even care if there's a lot of threads open? As long as there's still an issue that needs discussion, I really don't see what's wrong with leaving them around to be dredged up later if interest waxes. The tag stays on the article, after all, so it's not like they're disappearing into obscurity forever if they fall below page 2.

Not really understanding all the fuss...

Madrugada Since: Jan, 2001
#87: Aug 4th 2011 at 5:01:23 AM

We care, because if there's no problem, the thread should be closed and the tag taken off the page. If there is a problem, we need to fix it, not leave it there with the page announcing "Yeah, we know this is verkacked but we haven't bothered to fix it."

Willbyr Hi (Y2K) Relationship Status: With my statistically significant other
Hi
#88: Aug 4th 2011 at 6:38:43 AM

[up][up] Compare it to the classic image of the office worker who's got a gigantic pile of unfinished paperwork in his IN tray and very little in his OUT tray.

suedenim Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl from Jet Dream HQ Since: Oct, 2009
Teutonic Tomboy T-Girl
#89: Aug 4th 2011 at 6:47:22 AM

Shimaspawn touches on a point I've tried to make on occasion — we have way too much emphasis on "rename"/"don't rename" in TRS as opposed to what's more often the main issue, unclear and/or badly-written trope descriptions.

I fear splitting off "Rename Threads" would simply institutionalize something we should actually be trying to move away from. "Rename this trope!" threads are common because it's much easier to rename tropes (or argue about renaming tropes) than to actually repair them.

Jet-a-Reeno!
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#90: Aug 4th 2011 at 8:04:28 AM

I think we need more people who are good writers and have the time to do rewrites.

Fight smart, not fair.
captainpat Since: Sep, 2010
#91: Aug 4th 2011 at 9:00:30 PM

Yea well a bad description usually leads unclear definitions so even before we rewrite a lot of tropes descriptions, we almost always have to figure out what the trope is.

edited 4th Aug '11 9:00:42 PM by captainpat

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#92: Aug 4th 2011 at 9:45:34 PM

I am late to the discussion but in what direction if any will we be working with this massive back log? I would assume the oldest to newest to get those that have been languishing done and over with.

I think I might know something that might take some pressure off TRS specifically. Create a forum for cleaning up/repairing works pages that would work with the same limiters we would place for TRS. It helps shift the focus back to back to strictly Tropes.

Works pages are usually easier by comparison to clean up and burying them among the tropes just adds work to the TRS which is already over loaded. I acknoledge some works pages might need more work and not as simple to fix/clean and do to a certain extent tie in to tropes crosslisting wise.

edited 4th Aug '11 9:46:09 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
romanmyth Back in da New Yawk Groove from UTC: -05:00 Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: How YOU doin'?
Back in da New Yawk Groove
#93: Aug 4th 2011 at 10:03:54 PM

A thought I've had for a while (and a few others I believe, yet I do not have any active evidence to prove this) is perhaps that the "Laconic" entry could serve as an iron-clad, hardened definition of the Trope. I personally would also go as far as to add the laconic definition as the first sentence to every page, perhaps in bold so it sunk in especially hard. This would take a long time, and some definitions would be more than a sentence long. However, if we did this (and found some way to catalog laconic definitions) then we could not only possibly speed up the process of some TRS discussions, but also go through some YKTTW discussions, by having a laconic definition to look through and see whether "X exists" or "X does not exist"

However, I still believe we somehow need to bring more people into the TRS itself. I am at a loss for how, however. The Wiki headlines seem like a good idea, perhaps holding the first week of every month and dedicating it to TRS activity. However, I feel such an action isn't really a true permanent solution, and lacks any sort of *pow* to it. The wiki headlines seem to me like an "emergency has arisen, you all need to see this" button, and using it for TRS doesn't seem like a permanent solution.

Another idea I had was to somehow record what edits a troper makes, between adding/deleting/changing other material, and to somehow "score" them based on their work on the wiki. (An example would be +1 point per character [PPC] added, +1 PPC for anyone who saw your edit and 'approved' the change, -2 PPC and loss of approval points for removal due to natter.) Many tropers seem to enjoy showing what tropes they launched / worked on, and this system would reward them for making such contributes to the wiki. However, the problem with this system is it would be a programming nightmare to put in for each individual troper (let alone storing data, recording data, and going in-depth for the system) but such a system would also be open to abuse for others I imagine. Also, the score system would need work, since points are awarded on 'consensus' which might contribute to a decay of a trope - rapidly, if played out wrong.

So these were ideas I had, but I believe they are not worth the time or effort to implement them. I still think we need more people inside the TRS, but I am at a loss as to how to actively 'gather' the tropers and keep them greasing the cogs.

In an unrelated note, we should probably move the locked pages away from the main TRS and into an archive or something, while we decide how to deal with the backlog of unlocked TRS projects.

edited 4th Aug '11 10:04:27 PM by romanmyth

Pokedy Poke-poke
Discar Since: Jun, 2009
#94: Aug 4th 2011 at 10:41:12 PM

We're fixing the Laconics right now, and Eddie said he could make it so that they appear when you mouse over a link, which would solve lots of problems. But we have to fix the Laconics first.

They won't be iron-hard definitions, though. Tropes Are Flexible, and the entire point of Laconics is that they're short and simple. Not everything can be explained that quickly.

Writing a post-post apocalypse LitRPG on RR. Also fanfic stuff.
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#95: Aug 4th 2011 at 11:53:48 PM

I think a "work repair station" wouldn't be a bad idea. I also think a special YKTTW for building a works page would be a good idea. And people making threads in Media forum is better for that sort of things.

Fight smart, not fair.
pokedude10 Since: Oct, 2010
#96: Aug 6th 2011 at 5:40:18 PM

Well, I'm a little late to the party, but I might as well add my two bits.

Stack

It seems to me that one of the main problems is threads with Three-Hundred or more posts (Super-Threads). They usually hog the attention away from the simpler repairs.

One course of action would be to lock threads that reach the 200-300 mark, and then reboot them in a week or two. This would give smaller Repairs a chance to get going. Of course, Threads that are on the Wiki Headlines(Nakama) and those that have a Final Crowner are exempt.

One other thing I would like to see. Is one day after threads are locked, they are Pushed to the back, or Archived elsewhere.

edited 6th Aug '11 5:41:54 PM by pokedude10

TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#97: Aug 6th 2011 at 6:42:37 PM

Deboss: Why bother with a ykttw for works? That would be rather silly. I could see it being useful in certain limited instances ie weeding out unpublished works and maybe spotting works pages that will be a pain later. If want a works ykttw just use what we have already, just like what we technically for repair shop. Works go into TRS as well.

Who watches the watchmen?
Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#98: Aug 6th 2011 at 7:00:09 PM

Mostly because it's hard making a work page. Particularly troping it up.

Fight smart, not fair.
TuefelHundenIV Night Clerk of the Apocalypse from Doomsday Facility Corner Store. Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
Night Clerk of the Apocalypse
#99: Aug 6th 2011 at 7:23:19 PM

It is not that hard at all. It is much harder making a trope.

It is even easier troping it up. Find some work that shares a few attributes if you need a start. Or you could even find media from a similar or the same genere and puruse their trope list.

I will say building a works page from scratch is time consuming though.

edited 6th Aug '11 7:24:14 PM by TuefelHundenIV

Who watches the watchmen?
Night The future of warfare in UC. from Jaburo Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
The future of warfare in UC.
#100: Aug 6th 2011 at 10:10:28 PM

There needs to be more people with the authority or the willingness to shut them down early as frivolous. I know I've seen a few things pop up recently that appear to have lost the plot and one that doesn't even appear to belong in TRS.

Nous restons ici.

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