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Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#1: Jul 24th 2011 at 6:58:14 PM

This is a mental game I (and some other fans) like to play: what if a certain Marvel (or DC) character had been part of the other universe?

Now, most of the time, people just make the choices they'd like to see, instead of using logic (I certainly did so many times.) But the challenge here is in using in-story facts to prove your points.

I'll give you an example using Wonder Woman. (Why her? No reason, I was just thinking of her right now.)

First, let's define the Broad Strokes of the character. In her case they are:

  • She' the daughter of Hippolyta, Queen Of the Amazons;
  • She was raised on Paradise Island;
  • She won the right to represent The Amazons in the outside world by winning a contest; and
  • Once in America, she adopted the costumed identity of Wonder Woman.

How would any of this change (if at all) in a universe that contained both DC and Marvel characters? Let's see:

  • In Marvel, Hippolita is a villain! This is because she's the daughter of Ares, the god of war (In DC, they are enemies) and hates Hercules because he seduced her just to steal her magic girdle (in DC he raped her!) Or so he she believed, it actually was Hera who ruined their relationship. Note that Marvel's version is more correct according to the original myths.

So, if she'd been raised by this Hippolyta, it's safe to say that Diana would have been more her warrior incarnation than the Martial Pacifist she usually is.

  • In Marvel, the place that would have been Paradise Island is instead occupied by the The Inhumans (as hinted in the original Squadron Supreme series- their Wonder Woman expy, Princess Power, is from there.) Given how paranoid the Inhumans are, they would likely not have shared the place with the Amazons, forcing them to settle elsewhere. But where?

Well traditionally the Amazons island{s} have been inside the Bermuda Triangle, which in Marvel contains a time warp to the age of the dinosaurs (as seen in the series Skull The Slayer.) If we assume the warp swallowed them too, then Diana grew up surrounded by people from various eras (including Azteks) and might have met Skull (who is from the present). Oh, and had dinosaurs to fight (or tame)! (This actually fits somewhat with the Silver Age version of the character.)

  • Wonder Man might have named himself after Wonder Woman (if we assume she debuted first, which she should have.) I see him trying to hit on her while she snubs him. (He might change his hame after that.)

So, in short, Marvel's Wonder Woman would have been more aggressive warrior raised in a Lost World who might have learned of the modern world from Skull The Slayer (and he might have been her Love Interest instead of Steve Trevor) and later as a hero, Wonder Man might be her biggest fan.

Anyone else have similar ideas?

edited 24th Jul '11 7:05:26 PM by Sijo

foodbattle ...What the brown? from Tahiti (it's a magical place) Since: Oct, 2009
...What the brown?
#2: Jul 25th 2011 at 10:24:43 AM

I had similar ideas for Mortal Kombat and DC when Mortal Kombat Vs DC Universe came out. The same goes for Capcom and Marvel when Marvel Vs Capcom 3 came out. Can I share these?

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TheConductor Since: Jan, 2011
#3: Jul 25th 2011 at 12:27:11 PM

You know...I'm actually struggling to think of a character from Marvel or DC that would be really badly effected by the two merging. Like who would really need explaining?

I guess Namor and Aquaman...

PrimoVictoria Since: Dec, 1969
#4: Jul 25th 2011 at 1:48:59 PM

[up] The Spectre and Ghost Rider are now each other's Alternate Company Equivalent as God's Spirit Of Vengenace. Eternals and New Gods won't mesh well either.

And for the OP: Marvel's hippolita has evil daughter that murdered her. Try to incorporate that with WW.

VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#5: Jul 25th 2011 at 1:59:29 PM

Hippy has two daughters. Wonder Woman is the good one, and the other is evil.

Also, who says God has to be limited to one spirit of vengeance?

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TheConductor Since: Jan, 2011
#6: Jul 25th 2011 at 3:33:53 PM

According the Ghost Rider comics he DOES have several.

It could simply be that Spectre is the Angel of Vengeance, the main guy, and the Ghost Riders are his servants.

Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#7: Jul 25th 2011 at 4:39:35 PM

Well, I'd like this thread to be about Marvel and DC but cool ideas are always welcome. smile

It is true that nearly everything one company has the other also has (DC has mutants, for example, they just don't get all the crap the X-Men does) but that only makes conflicting roles more interesting: who gets to rule Atlantis, Aquaman or Namor? (I'd say Aquaman, but only because he's a better/more loved leader. Namor would not be happy about it, probably keeping him in the villain role.) Oh, and they live in separate underwater cities (Poseidonis and Tha-Korr respectively.)

I know that Marvel's Ghost Rider has been reinvented but I'm not clear how (I used to read everything both companies put out but I'm a few years behind the times these days, that's part of the reason I'm doing this thread, to get updated.) Last I heard, the Rider hosted a demon.

Also I have heard of Artume (obviously an intentional satire of Wonder Woman) but yeah, the two sisters thing can work (Diana DID have an enemy sister once - Nubia, who was Black.) Or, just because Marvel Hippolyta is bad doesn't mean Diana has to be, she has had periods were she and her mother were on opposite sides.

PrimoVictoria Since: Dec, 1969
#8: Jul 26th 2011 at 3:48:27 AM

[up]Considering that Fantastic Four has introduced new underwater race that says to be from Atlantis, I don't see a problem with having two Atlantis kingdom for each underwater hero.

Now, another problem - Ares:

  • DC: Evil to the core, killed Hades and become god of both war and death, currently dead, rules afterlife, still plots against Wonder Woman despite being dead, spawned five or so sons who are rotten to the core, calm, manipulative. Generally is more about causing conflicts.
  • Marvel: Former villain turned into type IV Anti-Hero, member of Avengers and Dark Avengers, carying father of young god of fear, died to save Asgard, trigger-happy Heroic Sociopath. Can cause conflicts when he wants, but enjoys participatingin them much more. Mostly a good guy unless Hercules is somehwere near, in which case he will try to kill him no matter what.

What to do with them?

Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#9: Jul 26th 2011 at 7:29:50 AM

[up] correct, both universes have plenty of underwater races (DC's Tritonians, Marvel's Lemurians etc.) so what's a few more? It's when Aquaman starts calling himself "Ruler of All Atlantis/The Seven Seas" that a certain Sub Mariner would say "Excuse me?" wink

As for mythological characters, often both companies had their own, not always compatible versions. But again, the fun is in taking these conflicts and resolving them via logic.

...Oh, and I forgot to mention: the reason I'm using the Broad Strokes of the characters is because, well, DC keeps tossing their continuity up in the Air like salad (and is in fact about to do it *again* this September) so citing hard facts is harder with them. The Pre Crisis version of Ares was notably different from the Post Crisis one for example.

The first option for the Marvel vs DC Greek gods is simple: They are two different pantheons! With DC's being the Greek gods and Marvel's being the Roman gods (and yes, historically they were originally separate pantheons, until the Romans started stealing Greek culture and legend for themselves and claimed they were the same.) This was canon in DC a few years back, in fact: the Roman gods were created by the Greek when they were convinced (by Darkseid) that in such a way they would gain twice as much power. Of course what he really wanted was to weaken them for eventual conquest. The two groups then merged back into one after the War of the Gods Crisis Crossover. ...I have no idea if any of that is still canonical, though.

Or, we can simply stick to the basic facts/roles and ignore the more recent ones (Ares was definitely a villain in Marvel until recent years when The Incredible Hercules series made him popular.) So yeah, he would still be a villain here. Maybe not as dark as the DC version though (which really exaggerated his historical role).

edited 26th Jul '11 7:52:46 AM by Sijo

PrimoVictoria Since: Dec, 1969
#10: Jul 26th 2011 at 10:27:32 AM

[up]Or maybye Ares got somehow split together into two gods, from which one enjoy causing conflicts and is DC version and another is that part of him that just likes battles and killing and is Marvel version?

Also, a little bit about Marvel Ares - he was actually turned into a hero somewhere around Avengers Disassembled when Michael Avon Oeming created limited series about him. Incredible Hercules and Bendi's Avengers has come later.

TheConductor Since: Jan, 2011
#11: Jul 26th 2011 at 12:28:35 PM

We could say that Ares was an evil SOB who killed Hades and spawned some evil kids, but then mellowed out and joined the Avengers, and has something of a grudge against Wonder Woman.

SpaceJawa UTINNI! from Right Here Since: Jan, 2001
UTINNI!
#12: Jul 26th 2011 at 12:37:46 PM

Ares suffers from Multiple personality syndrome, like a sort of Dr. Jeckle and Mr. Hyde. Every so often, Ares has this sleep has to attend to, and when he does, he wakes up with the alternate personality. Neither one recognizes this, and thinks that the other version of Ares is a different character, one that he has sworn to destroy. As a result, Ares is his own arch-nemesis.

For Atlantis, perhaps Namor would replace Orm as Aquaman's brother, but both of them have equal claim to the throne, and the throne regularly switches ownership from one to the other as they continue to one-up one another or otherwise trick their brother out of rulership of Atlantis.

Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#13: Jul 26th 2011 at 12:54:49 PM

[up][up][up] Ah, thanks, another thing I needed to be updated on. :) But still, Marvel Ares was a villain for several decades before that. Still not as evil as DC's, but hardly a hero.

And yes, if we go by the idea that the Greek gods literally split in two, then we can use Ares for the Greek Pantheon and Mars (Marvel's Ares) for the Roman one. Similarly, the Herakles who raped Hippolyta (DC) would NOT be the same person as Hercules (Marvel), etc.

Note that something similar already applies to Marvel, in that several Eternals pretended to be Olympian gods (with their permission, as it turned out.)

edited 26th Jul '11 1:00:54 PM by Sijo

Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#14: Jul 30th 2011 at 9:19:24 AM

You know, this would be easier to do if we had specific timelines for Marvel and DC as references. I've been thinking about doing them here in TV Tropes (in the style of The Trope History of the Universe) for a while. What do you folks think?

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#15: Jul 30th 2011 at 1:05:32 PM

[up][up][up]In regards to that bit about Ares... yeah, that thing has always bugged me. I remember reading Starman, and the plotwist regarding the Shade in 'Grand Guignole' came up. And it turned out that Shade had two sides to him, so to speak. (It was actually a different person, but I think this still counts.) Now, according to that storyline, when the other person took over, Shade would not remember anything the other person did, and had no idea that someone else was controlling his body for periods of time. There's just one problem; time passed.

Now imagine, if you will, you're just standing in in your home, looking out a window. Now also imagine that you have another self. The other self takes over, and when he's done, he brings you back to that same exact spot. No harm done, right? Wrong; you look at the window again, and to you, no time has passed... except for the fact that the amount of sunlight has suddenly, without warning, changed, and that there are now less clouds in the sky, when there should be many more. And when you turn around to look at the time, it's now 3 hours later then it should be. Anyone with half a brain should realize that, at the very least, something is up. And even if they thought it was just some sort of really weird zone-out, if it kept happening, they're bound to notice something.

So, yeah; it just doesn't work. At least, not the way everyone seems to think it does.

VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#16: Jul 30th 2011 at 2:31:03 PM

[up][up]There is the Grand Unified Timeline, which covers Marvel and DC, as well as everything else.

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Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#17: Jul 30th 2011 at 6:22:53 PM

[up]Thanks, that looks interesting.

Still, specific timelines for Marvel and DC might be useful, especially now that DC is going to reboot again; I'm sure many tropers will want to contribute any new facts as soon as they learn them.

(DC claims they have a timeline worked out already but that they will not release it to the public.)

TheConductor Since: Jan, 2011
#18: Jul 31st 2011 at 8:57:39 AM

Since I read all of DC's books, once the reboot happens, I'll be more than willing to start knocking together a timeline.

Cider The Final ECW Champion from Not New York Since: May, 2009 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
The Final ECW Champion
#19: Aug 1st 2011 at 9:11:45 AM

Marvel gets the Roman gods and DC get the Greek? Works for me. Why. Because he's the Incredible Hercules, Marvel's is more important than D Cs and Hercules is the Roman name. Also, Pluto, enemy of the Defenders, and Venus had a book once I think. The Greek gods are on Earth 2 with Wonder Woman.

Wonder Woman finally has that antagonists she's been sorely lacking in the form of Namor. Ares and Circe are okay, but as an original character you'd think she'd have original rogues... that didn't mostly suck. Namor would change that. Wonder Woman is the outsider bringing good will to the larger world, Namor is the outsider who wants to sink New York. Diana is an amazon who are the fantasies of men the world over(at least in DC comics world) Namor is a mutant, hated and feared on principle. Diana can have an evil mother and eviler sister too. Aquaman doesn't exist.

Dr. Strange and Doctor Fate are one Entity. Dr. Strange-Fate, his mother had a hyphenated name. Galactus gets taken over by a Brainiac, Abraxas doesn't exist and all that greater good nonsense is removed. Tyrant is still a rival of the Silver Surfer and is never retconned into Galactus Jr. and Galactus/Braniac is Silver Surfer's arch enemy. A different Brainiac fights Superman. Hulk becomes a Superman foe the way Namor does for Wonder Woman. Spider-man temporarily becomes Superman's sidekick but is dropped due to bad publicity from the bugle.

The X-men live on Earth 2...alternatively Professor X was successful and the world respects mutants now but that would undermine Namor so they live on Earth 2 and occasionally cross over because of rip in time-space around Earth. This rip is guarded by the Giant Sized Man-thing to keep evil from using to cause damage. It is also the reason so many aliens end up on Earth.

No white Martians, Skrulls now look like white Martians.

Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
AtomJames I need a drink Since: Apr, 2010
I need a drink
#20: Aug 1st 2011 at 9:18:24 AM

[up]And every super-villainworth his salt want to get their grubby hands on

THE COSMIC EQUATION!

Theres sex and death and human grime in monochrome for one thin dime and at least the trains all run on time but they dont go anywhere.
Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#21: Aug 1st 2011 at 6:04:10 PM

Cool ideas. grin

Venus did indeed have her own series back in the fifties, although it was a little wacky (but then, so were Wonder Woman's adventures back then.) For some reason it was recently retconned in the Agents Of Atlas series that this wasn't the real Venus but rather a nymph who though she was Venus... I honestly don't see the point of that, since the actual Thor and Hercules have their own comics, so why not her? Anybody know?

Hmm, Venus might help make a more warlike Wonder Woman into a hero (that was the kind of thing she did in her series.)

(Also note that DC *did* once have his own Hercules series ("Hercules Unbound") but it was set far in the future, so it doesn't contradict any Marvel Herc stuff AFAIK.)

And yeah, a Namor/Diana dynamic could be fun to watch! evil grin

The problem with Drs. Fate and Strange is that Fate is a Lord Of Order, and the Sorcerer Supreme is supposed to be an independent agent. Though I can see Nabu/Fate as being the top sorcerer at certain points in history.

I don't think Brainiac could take Galactus, but if the villain Korvac (from The Avengers' Korvac Saga) could tap the big G's machines and gain cosmic knowledge and power, so can Brainiac. (In fact I always suspected Korvac was a Brainiac rip-off.)

The Doom patrol could be the home of mutant "freaks" like the Morlocks, their deal seems to be to cater to the less human members of society (This has included mutants at some points!) More 'normal' Mutants would hang in Xavier's school. Hmm, Nightcrawler as a Patrol Member?

The Celestials implanted the X-Factor/Metagene that gives humans powers, but their plans for humanity were ruined by White Martians experimenting on primitive humans, resulting in the odd behavior of the gene that creates random mutants.

MousaThe14 Writer, Artist, Ignored from Northern Virginia Since: Jan, 2011 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Writer, Artist, Ignored
#22: Aug 1st 2011 at 10:07:21 PM

Actually my friend and I were working on an amalgam universe of sorts and a lot of heroes and origins were merging together. For example, the entire blue beetle line is Daredevil, Moon Knight, and Spider-man, each receiving different abilities from a single blue beetle agent from space a sort of miniature green lantern force if you will. The original possessor of the three powers was dying at the hands of an unknown adversary and transferred his powers to three Earthen people, two already superheroes (Moon Knight and Daredevil) and Peter Reyes being given the final piece, power of the Beast. Daredevil was given power of the mage and Moon Knight power of the warrior. Rarely they work together but when they do their abilities are nigh unmatched.

So I'm thinking Kal-El landed on earth and was found by the Rogers but was quickly found by the government and was raised to be the poster by of the american way by General Kent who took him on as his protege. Clark Rogers's unique DNA was use to begin a line of super soldier experiments and as the original he took up that mantle, bearing a shield of Vibranim as a reminder of his duty to protect. He'd be known only as the Super Soldier. General Kent's son was the first to volunteer in the gene grafting experiment that would essentially turn him into the next in line of the super soldier experiments, The Super Patriot. Sadly Bucky Kent the super patriot would turn made and rage against his creators, his body and mind addled by the unnatural grafting of DNA, his body nigh rejecting his new abilities.

And I sort of have nothing from there but I can get the list and extrapolate more ideas from there. The Iron Bat family should prove interesting to justify.

The Blog The Art
pagad Sneering Imperialist from perfidious Albion Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Sneering Imperialist
#23: Aug 3rd 2011 at 6:21:33 AM

The Punisher...as a Batman rogue!

With cannon shot and gun blast smash the alien. With laser beam and searing plasma scatter the alien to the stars.
Sijo from Puerto Rico Since: Jan, 2001
#24: Sep 20th 2011 at 6:15:42 AM

I'm coming back to this topic after being interrupted by Hurricane Irene. Besides I needed time to work on my basic timeline: I decided to focus only on superheroes for now; originally I was going to cover every genre in the two companies eg. horror and science fiction as well, but that's too many ideas to track down easily. So the following list just covers the Ages of Superheroes eg. the 20th and 21th centuries. This is just the framework and doesn't go into detail on any character, that comes later. This is subject to change:

Combined Marvel and DC Universe List, Version One (M = Marvel Comics, DC = DC Comics)

The 19th Century: The first costumed heroes (and villains) appear in America’s Wild West (Both M and DC.) They occasionally help each other, creating the impression that they are part of a group, nicknamed the Rough Bunch (DC) by the public- this isn’t true, however.

World War I: The first hero group, the Freedom’s Brigade (M) forms. It’s composed of heroes from the nations fighting against the Germans.

1940: The Justice Society (DC) forms.

1941: When America enters World War II, President Roosevelt calls for all the heroes to join a larger group, The All Star Squadron (DC) to protect the homefront. It includes all the heroes that would become The Freedom Fighters (see below) and the Liberty Legion (M) as well.

1942: Winston Churchill convinces several heroes to form a group called The Freedom Fighters (DC) to deal with Nazi supervillains. (Actually this is Marvel’s Invaders, with some DC heroes in it. Freedom Fighters is just a better name for a hero team fighting in the occupied territories in my opinion.)

The 50’s: The Freedom Fighters get new members (heroes that would otherwise have formed The All-Winners Squad (M).) The team doesn’t last long however due to personal tragedies.

  • A hero group called The First Line (M) forms, but the government convinces them to keep their existence a secret.
  • Several other heroes are also contacted by FBI agent Jimmy Woo, and convinced to act secretly. Decades later (in the present) they will reunite and form the Agents Of Atlas (M).
  • A group of (seemingly normal) adventurers (such as Ulysses Bloodstone (M) actually an immortal caveman, and Congo Bill (Aka Congorilla) (DC) forms to hunt down the strange monsters (both M and DC) that begin to appear, many of which were secretly created by the hidden Deviant race (M). They are known, appropriately enough, as the Monster Hunters (M) (with some members from DC's Forgotten Heroes added).

The 80’s: The First Line dies preventing a Skrull (M) invasion of Earth. The public at large never finds out.

  • The Justice Squad (DC) is briefly active.

Approx. 13 years ago: Superman (DC) becomes the first superhero of the new generation.

  • The Justice League (DC) soon forms.
  • Four adventurers who survived a plane crash together become a high-tech research team: The Challengers Of The Unknown.
  • The Fantastic Four (M) forms, in circumstances similar to The Challenger's; they develop a friendly rivalry.
  • The Avengers (M) form, as do the X Men (M).
  • The former members of the Justice Squad force their children to become heroes; they call themselves the Inferior Five (DC).
  • The Defenders form- sort of, they are made of heroes who just come and go; pretty much every hero could be a member at some point. From DC, mostly those from The Outsiders.

A few years ago: The Teen Titans form (note that the New Warriors never form; rather, they are another iteration of Titans, possibly Titans East.)

  • The Challengers disband, deciding that the Fantastic Four are doing their job better.

More later.

edited 21st Sep '11 5:08:33 AM by Sijo

VampireBuddha Calendar enthusiast from Ireland (Wise, aged troper) Relationship Status: Complex: I'm real, they are imaginary
Calendar enthusiast
#25: Sep 20th 2011 at 12:37:20 PM

Why are the Justice League and Avengers seperate? I would have thought it would be more sensible to have one alpha superhero group containing members of both.

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