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I'm pretty sure that if you want him in a less cushy place, anybody could put up a Mini-ADX Florence.
I still cant comprehend this.
If he was anti muslim, wouldn't he have bombed a mosque or shot up some muslim community?
It makes no sense. I'm starting to think its all just a smoke screen the guy made up.
Yeah, I mean, I normally support rehabilitation over punishment but in extreme cases, they should get the barest minimum amount of human necessities. And this is an extreme case.
edited 25th Jul '11 8:07:40 PM by Thorn14
As far as this one understands, his rationale was the political inclinations of the youth on the island
edited 25th Jul '11 8:09:29 PM by Beholderess
I'll try to explain "Forvaring" to the best of my ability. "Forvaring" essentially means you get put in prison for a time (I'd imagine he'd get the maximum 21 years). Once that time is up, the person will be evaluated to see if he should still be perceived as a threat to our country. If he is perceived as such (and I wager he will be), he get's another period of "Forvaring". He can only escape this sentence if he can prove he's not a threat anymore. Otherwise, the only other escape is death.
It's more merciful than a life sentence, and is probably based on the belief that any human can achieve redemption, but if you are constantly perceived as a threat, it could in a way be crueler than a life sentence, as you would be constantly shot down. I certainly believe his "Forvaring" could get really prolonged.
edited 25th Jul '11 8:11:39 PM by Folt
@ Thorn 14.
He takes it that his target is allowing Muslims into his country, thus a traitor to his mind. Page 1255 of his manifesto.
I have one caveat. If Europeans are so up in arms about Muslims, maybe they shouldn't have spent the past millennium making their lives as intolerable as possible.
Thats...not really the fault of anyone nowadays.
Thats like blaming modern day Japanese for Pearl Harbor...which people still do...sigh.
I think that it's important to remember that the values and ideals that have served Norway so well in the past need to be held on to and cherished now more than ever before. 21 years and a lifetime of "Forvaring" is the way to go; Norway and Norway's way of doing things should not be changed upon the whims of an evil killer. This is when you have to say "this is our way of doing things, it is good and it is fair, and it won't be sacrificed because of you".
edited 25th Jul '11 8:26:28 PM by TheBatPencil
An example. The British deplete our tin reserve when they colonised my country. Same thing with other colonies. Now, what could the native do after the colonists left their land totally devoid of resource?
edited 25th Jul '11 8:26:21 PM by Blurring
Not...kill 70+ children in the far future?
Of course not, but some of the natives goes to the country of their former masters. This is what this guy against. His government allowing the people he hates in.
edited 25th Jul '11 8:32:04 PM by Blurring
Not to stray too far off-topic, but the U.S. and it's European allies aren't exactly discriminate when it comes to killing brown people. We've been raiding their resources, arming the Taliban, installing dictators and generally being a nuisance ever since the Cold War. That's not even counting King Richard's crusade.
To compare this long legacy of harassment by Anglo-Saxons against a single act of war (Pearl Harbor) is just not in the same league.
What is it with the all-effacing brownness of anyone who isn't white? That makes the people who think Africa is a country look like they know what they're talking about.
(I'm guilty of this too. I used it to make fun of Tom Tancredo. Shouldn't have given in to the temptation, because it's a stupid, stupid rhetorical device.)
x6 Yeah, you're probably right. "Forvaring" is enough.
edited 25th Jul '11 8:42:20 PM by Folt
Let's hope it's Forevaring, in this case.
The possibility is certainly there. If I read correctly, what he's being charged with can (and I hope it will) give him 21 years in prison with the possibility for Forvaring! Before that he will be kept by the police for eight weeks. Four of those weeks must be spent in total isolation.
edited 25th Jul '11 10:16:33 PM by Folt
Story from campers near the island. In total, the campers at Utvika managed to pull 150 people out of the water.
" "There were people swimming everywhere in the water," Marcel says. "I threw them lifejackets and pulled those into the boat who were having the most trouble. Everyone was screaming, but they were also helping each other." They screamed, they cried, but they also hugged each other for courage. "It was unbelievable to see how strong they were," Marcel says. "
Looks like he could get more than 21 years.
EDIT: Bah, didn't realize you had to subscribe to get full access.
EDIT 2: Better link.
edited 26th Jul '11 4:19:58 AM by Rationalinsanity
I'm surprised how ten pages seemed to come from nowhere, but I think someone was arguing that the youth couldn't constitute an "elite".
What it looks like is that a very large group of people could considered from standard backgrounds, but there was a very strong privileged presence and the definite presence of future leaders. Plus, whenever uses a snotty phrase like "best and brightest", they're referring to people being groomed for elite positions. Plus, they were barely children. Someone 21 years old is clearly an adult. And while someone 15 isn't as legitimate as a target, it's not something unheard of. Compared with the misery inflicted by the class of the 'victims', it's not much.
Also, I vaguely remember someone asking what was so offensive about the Norwegian elite. Norway isn't a hugely influential country, but it's clearly got its niche. I vaguely remember [insert hard-to-write Norwegian name] was hoping to off some former prime minister primarily known for UN activities. That's kind of an example of an elite, for their own self-satisfaction, trying to export social models and cultural ideas disastrous for other countries. The Norwegian political elite is still part of a greater global parasitic elite and has small niches (from symbolic things like the Nobel Peace Prize to supplying people in more concrete positions in global organizations). Now, he would have a more positive effect if he had been someone in a more influential country, but even a footsoldier isn't a general, they still do something. Also attacks on citizens tend to discredit the ideologies they're for, and islamophobia is something that I wouldn't miss. Also instead of targeting a marginalized minority with little access to political power (Europe's immigrants), he targeted the heart of a parasitic political elite with surprising determination. And that's fairly admirable. Plus, his views meant enough to him for him to essentially sacrifice his free life for it, while most people (such as most who express absolute horror over him) end their views when it stops making them feel good and fluffy inside. I don't agree with his political views, but I can't condemn his actual actions.
edited 26th Jul '11 4:32:37 AM by Tsukubus
So being "smug" and privileged should open adolescents up to being killed by armed madmen? Attacking the children of your opponents is somehow legitimate?
...I can't find a way to respond to this kind of lunacy effectively without getting modded and/or sinking to your level.
These children are the elites of tomorrow. A lot of them will grow up to be very damaging people. Of course, the flip side of the coin is that some of them wouldn't, and that some innocent people who would be better off alive are dead. That alone makes sure what happened isn't justice. But that doesn't mean it was a "bad" thing (in terms of how much people overall are helped in the long run). I wouldn't call Hiroshima and Nagasaki (and Tokyo, Kobe, Yokohoma, Osaka, Sendai, Fukuoka, etc. ) justice either, but that doesn't prevent them from being good things in the long run.
So you are basically operating under (a completely flawed, twisted and ineffective form) utilitarianism? By your logic I could walk into an impoverished area of town and start shooting with justification that I might be removing future criminals. Or walk into a upper class daycare and blow the place up to possibly prevent some of those evil rich kids from launching Ponzi schemes 40 years down the road.
edited 26th Jul '11 4:49:49 AM by Rationalinsanity
Except the overwhelming vast majority of people you'd get would be completely innocent. At that camp, the majority of the kids WOULD have probably been terrible influences on the world. Anders probably picked an extremely rare place in the world where that was true.
I still don't get why you think that the camp goers are a "privileged elite", they are just politically interested youths making contact with like minded people and having fun.
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