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Three conflicting definitions: Fallen Princess

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Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Jul 18th 2011 at 1:53:38 AM

Okay, before you read this, try to Guess The Trope and think of what you believe that Fallen Princess means.

Then take a look at the article. The description gives us three definitions, which unfortunately are in conflict. (1) A beautiful, smart, and popular girl becomes a (super)hero, but becomes impopular or outcast as a result; (2) a secondary character who is a b*tch is revealed to be sympathetic, and then becomes impopular for whatever reason; and (3) an actual princess, or upper-class girl, has a commoner fall in love with her, which appears to be hopeless. And (4) several of the examples, e.g. Simba from The Lion King and Sansa from A Song Of Ice And Fire, do not fit the definition on the page, but are simply a princess (or prince) who has fallen on hard times.

So yeah, this strikes me as very confusing. Can we reach some agreement over which definition is correct? At the very least, this needs cleanup; possibly, it also needs a trope split and/or a rename (especially if the definition is not about actual princesses). Thoughts please?

edited 18th Jul '11 1:57:15 AM by Spark9

Special trousers. Very heroic.
nrjxll Relationship Status: Not war
Jul 18th 2011 at 2:21:44 AM

Okay, first, definition #3 has no discernible relationship to the title or the other possible definitions. It must go, and can probably be made into a subtrope of Inter-Class Romance (if that was launched).

Jul 18th 2011 at 5:41:57 PM

I thought the heart of the trope was a female character who was at some point the "popular princess" type who has for some reason lost her power, popularity, or wealth, and learns a lesson from it and adjusts her behavior accordingly.

As opposed to Princess in Rags who carries on despite her change in circumstance.

Jul 18th 2011 at 9:47:16 PM

The 'super hero' and 'choosen one' thing, I didn't get that at all. In fact, the definition sounded like wish fullfillment for the characters around the 'princess'. That part needs to be removed, and the definition focused on the fall part, either from social heights or economic heights etc.n

Jul 20th 2011 at 10:19:33 PM

Doesn't appear to have gone through YKTTW, but does have archive.org archive dating back to February 2008, so may have been YKTTW'd and launched during the period wiped out by The Great Crash.

I think it's just supposed to be about a high-status character losing their status for whatever reason, but the description gets too specific and then has to backtrack to cover all its bases. The third definition works after a fashion, since such a relationship would be scandalous.

edited 20th Jul '11 10:21:15 PM by MorganWick

NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jul 21st 2011 at 3:24:54 PM

My understanding of the trope was the same as Sackett's.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
StarryEyed Relationship Status: If you like it, then you shoulda put a ring on it
Jul 22nd 2011 at 9:40:05 PM

Yeah, I got the gist of the trope the same as Sackett's. I think the confusion comes from the description getting too caught up in tangents about how the status fall could possibly happen and makes it sound like different types when it's just varying presentations of the same concept.

Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Jul 25th 2011 at 9:30:56 AM

Okay, so if I understand correctly, the point of the trope is that a popular girl loses her popularity and learns an aesop from that which changes her behavior. Also, she's not supposed to be an actual princess, but rather the "popular girl".

That means that the part about the b*tchy minor character should be removed, as well as the part about Inter-Class Romance, as well as all examples that relate to an actual prince or princess rather than e.g. a popular high schooler. Do people agree with me so far?

Next question is, since the trope isn't actually about falling (but rather, about the lesson learned) and neither is it actually about princesses (but rather, about popular girls), should we consider a rename? It strikes me that the unclear name has contributed to the four different definitions used on the page, and there has been clear misuse on the page itself.

Special trousers. Very heroic.
NoirGrimoir Rabid Fujoshi from San Diego, CA Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Rabid Fujoshi
Jul 25th 2011 at 6:35:36 PM

Actually I was under the impression actual princesses counted as long as they had the haughty, stuck-up princess attitude.

SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Jul 25th 2011 at 7:09:57 PM

This one is definitely being used as someone with a princess attitude—whether they actually were one or not—falling from grace. Which is pretty far from any of the page definitions.

edited 25th Jul '11 7:10:04 PM by Discar

Spark9 Gentleman Troper! from Castle Wulfenbach Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Gentleman Troper!
Jul 26th 2011 at 8:37:15 AM

[up][up] The point is that they can be an actual princess, but it's not true that every actual princess counts, and most examples of this trope aren't an actual princess.

For example, a princess who is part of the Royal Court and spends her time manipulating other nobles would count. A princess who's stuck in a tower, or runs around the meadows helping animals, or whatever, doesn't count. Whether she's a princess or not isn't really relevant to the trope.

Special trousers. Very heroic.
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