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KylerThatch literary masochist Since: Jan, 2001
literary masochist
#226: Mar 13th 2012 at 11:24:54 PM

Because everyone knows that sticks and stones can break your bones, but words can never hurt you. /sarcasm

Seriously speaking, if it comes down to one or the other, emotional damage is arguably worse. Bruises and wounds heal over time, but when you break someone emotionally, you could very well have broken them for the rest of their life, rendering them unable to function as a normal person.

That is, assuming they actually live the rest of their lives.

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#227: Mar 13th 2012 at 11:37:24 PM

I wonder about this idea of words being enough to completely destroy you. I think that your average kid is quite a bit more resilient than some of the people in this thread give them credit for.

I will preface by saying I don't think bullying is a good thing, and it should be stopped whenever possible. I also think that societal bullying (e.g. a homosexual that is bullied not just by classmates but also by society itself) is several degrees worse than peer bullying.

On the other hand, I imagine that average bullying, while terrible, is not going to destroy your average person. Take 100 bullied kids. Maybe the first five won't care at all about the bullying. Their support groups are just too strong for them to give a damn. The next ninety-three will care to varying degrees, but will be just fine. While they don't have the best support groups in existence, they are still normal people capable of making friends and finding comfort and joy. The 99th student might have some correctable psychological problems. His support group was completely indifferent about his existence. The 100th might be irreversibly scarred. He not only lacked a support group, but those that would normally be within that group (family, adults), were hostile.

I just think that your average bullied kid grows up just fine. Some are stronger for it, others just powered through it and didn't learn anything from it, but I think it is relatively rare to find kids that are completely destroyed by it. And I don't say this with a lack of empathy for those bullied, just that, in the grand scheme of things, only the weakest will really be damaged by it, and while we should do our best to make certain it shouldn't happen, I also don't think we should overblow the problem. I've seen so many people be bullied and grow up just fine.

I just want to make certain that we're taking a realistic look at the problem.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
KylerThatch literary masochist Since: Jan, 2001
literary masochist
#228: Mar 13th 2012 at 11:59:13 PM

From "A review of the extent, nature, characteristics and effects of bullying behaviour in schools."

There are many repercussions of bullying that are quite shocking. According to Kerlikowske (2003) these include:

(1) Children who are bullied are more likely to be depressed; 26% of girls who were frequently bullied reported depression as opposed to 8% of girls who were not. Similarly the boys who were bullied and reported depression were 16% as against 3% who were not.

(2) Victims are more likely to be suicidal, with 8% for girls and 4% for boys, compared to 1% overall for non-victims of bullying.

(3) Bullies are more likely to carry weapons, with 43% carrying weapons to school at least once a week, compared to 8% who were not carrying weapons.

(4) 46% of bullies are more likely to be injured while 16% of bullies are not likely to be injured.

(5) As one middle-school student expressed it "there is another kind of violence, and that is violence by talking. It can leave you hurting more than a cut with knife. It can leave you bruised inside" (National Association of Attorneys General, 2000).

(6) Students who are targeted by bullies often have difficulty concentrating on their school work, and their academic performance tends to move from "marginal to poor" (Ballard, Tucky & Remley, 1999). Typically, bullied students feel anxious, and this anxiety may in turn produce a variety of physical or emotional ailments

(7) Rates of absenteeism are higher among victimized students than rates among non-bullied peers, as are drop-out rates. Nansel et al (2001) observed that "youths who are bullied generally show higher levels of insecurity, anxiety, depression, loneliness, unhappiness, physical and mental symptoms, and low-self esteem.

(8) Long—term effects on victims—persistent bullying during the school years may have long—term negative effects on the victims many years beyond school (Olweus, 1993). Chronic bullies seem to maintain their behaviours into adulthood thus influencing their ability to develop and maintain positive relationships (Oliver, Hoover & Hazier, 1994).

(9) Drake (2003) found that victims of bullies tend to be less popular in school than other students not involved in bullying. As a result of being bullied, 16% boys and 31% girls reported being absent from school in attempt to avoid being victimized (Rigby, 1997).

(10) Bullying does not just affect the victim, but it also has consequences for the bully. First, for the victim, bullying can cause physical, academic, social and psychological problems. Some of the physical symptoms include headaches and migraines, skin problems such as eczema, psoriasis, athletes foot, ulcers, sweating, trembling, shaking, palpitations and panic attacks, irritable bowel syndrome, aches and pains in the joints and muscles; and frequent illness such as viral infections and second, for the bully, they are seldom able to conclude friendship, they are often anti-social adults and the bullying is sometimes the first stepping stone to juvenile crime and criminal activities (Aluede, 2006; Wet, 2005).

(11) The psychological scars left by bullying often endure for years. For instance, the feelings of isolation and the loss of self-esteem that victims experience seem to last into adulthood (Clarke & Kiselica, 1997).

I'm not very good at interpreting numbers, but I thought I'd bring it to the thread anyway. I think having statistical data would help define the issue better.

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#229: Mar 14th 2012 at 12:05:12 AM

SHORT VERSION: The average victim of bullying is not the average child.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
KylerThatch literary masochist Since: Jan, 2001
literary masochist
#230: Mar 14th 2012 at 12:09:15 AM

But does being not-average lead to bullying, or is bullying the cause of being not-average? Or does it feed into each other in a tragic feedback loop?

This "faculty lot" you speak of sounds like a place of great power...
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#231: Mar 14th 2012 at 12:17:37 AM

There's probably some middle ground there. People are often bullied for being different (e.g.: weird hobbies, gay, unsocial), but the bullying certainly has an effect on someone's personality and self-image.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#232: Mar 14th 2012 at 12:19:33 AM

SHORT VERSION: The average victim of bullying is not the average child.

Maybe chronic bullying. I'd wager most kids are bullied at some point or another.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#233: Mar 14th 2012 at 12:26:58 AM

I just assumed chronic bullying was what we were all referring to.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#234: Mar 14th 2012 at 12:47:38 AM

[up]That's an assumption I probably should have made.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#235: Mar 14th 2012 at 1:16:42 AM

S'okay, at least we're on the same page now smile

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
betaalpha betaalpha from England Since: Jan, 2001
betaalpha
#236: Mar 14th 2012 at 1:56:29 AM

@Mark One: depending on the severity and type of bullying and your own resources, ways to deal with it include joining support groups, joining or forming a gang (just be sure that doesn't cause more problems than it solves), moving out of the area and ambushing the fucker and beating him up (only semi-serious!) Note that that list runs in order of what is the smartest thing to do, but it runs in reverse order of most people's fantasies about how they would deal with it.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#237: Mar 14th 2012 at 5:46:38 AM

Again, bullying is largely a matter of environment. From experience, there were environments where I was violently, cruelly and constantly bullied, environments where I was avoided systematically and people wouldn't talk to me because I was "weird", and environments where I was adored and the Life of the Party. And I behaved in exactly the same way, in every single one of them. Not out of choice, but because I have an irrepressible personality.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
CDRW Since: May, 2016
#238: Mar 14th 2012 at 10:25:04 AM

Never mind.

edited 14th Mar '12 10:46:20 AM by CDRW

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#239: Mar 14th 2012 at 7:28:24 PM

My point is, you'll get radically different reactions from different crowds and their subcultures. Of course, I'm not suggesting that, say, parents of gay or nerdy children move away from rural America and into the big cities. That would lead to disaster.

edited 14th Mar '12 7:28:33 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#240: Mar 14th 2012 at 7:50:35 PM

Aw, come on, it's not worse, at least you keep your physical integrity!

Not being sure if this is sarcasm or not, I gotta say it is considerably worse than physical violence. There are at least certain recourses one can seek when things get physical — before then the usual attitude is "suck it up, pussy".

That, and for the most part physical injuries heal. The psychological impact of bullying stunts your social learning for years, and the neuroses that result from it can quite easily be lifelong.

Karmakin Moar and Moar and Moar Since: Aug, 2009
Moar and Moar and Moar
#241: Mar 14th 2012 at 8:01:05 PM

That's what people are trying to say, not all bullying is the same. If there's an asshole who picks on you and pushes you around and stuff, but you generally have other friends and other social interactions, generally that's less damaging (or even not at all, and it's relatively easy to deal with) as compared to a situation where you're the target for a large swath of the community and you have very few friends or your small group are all the targets.

The problem isn't the bullying itself, the problem is the effects of social isolation. And as we know, social isolation really can be damaging to both the psyche and social development. I know speaking for myself it really hurt my social development substantially.

Democracy is the process in which we determine the government that we deserve
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#242: Mar 14th 2012 at 8:07:55 PM

Exactly. Social isolation puts a vicegrip on learning how to interact with people — at all — and by the time you get away from it via whatever means, people expect you to already know all of those things. And then unless you're lucky, you get ostracized again for being awkward.

Vericrat Like this, but brown. from .0000001 seconds ago Since: Oct, 2011
Like this, but brown.
#243: Mar 14th 2012 at 8:08:54 PM

And physical injuries can't leave emotional impacts? I think that the psychological horror of being beaten is just as valid as the psychological horror of being teased.

Much to my BFF's wife's chagrin, No Pants 2013 became No Pants 2010's at his house.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#244: Mar 14th 2012 at 8:17:56 PM

Again, it also means you have recourse to stop it, because the surrounding environment tends to draw the line there and get off their ass to do something.

Prior to physical violence, you're completely alone and you'll stay that way because people refuse to acknowledge there's even a problem.

edited 14th Mar '12 8:19:50 PM by Pykrete

0dd1 Just awesome like that from Nowhere Land Since: Sep, 2009
Just awesome like that
#245: Mar 14th 2012 at 9:07:32 PM

[up][up]No one's saying it isn't. A huge part of the problem is when people refuse to believe there's a problem until violence occurs.

On that note, I just went to see The Artist today and I finally got to the see the trailer for this:

I've heard of the movie (mostly the controversy surrounding the MPAA giving it an R rating), but this is the first actual look I got of it. I have a feeling it'll be a great spark for conversation on the topic.

Insert witty and clever quip here. My page, as the database hates my handle.
Desertopa Not Actually Indie Since: Jan, 2001
Not Actually Indie
#246: Mar 18th 2012 at 3:27:04 PM

What are you suggesting, a license to raise children? That's unenforceable!

In principle, it's pretty enforceable; you would just have to force parents to prevent their certification whenever dealing with any child related services- hospitals, day care centers, schools, and so on. Place sanctions on any private institution that refuses to comply.

It's not unenforceable because it's too difficult to impose on people who'd run afoul of it, but because it's too unpopular to gain traction with the general population.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#247: Mar 18th 2012 at 11:01:15 PM

Wouldn't that only lead to bootleg hospitals, bootleg schools, and other improvised methods built to circumvent the law?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#248: Mar 18th 2012 at 11:06:59 PM

Not to mention actively punishing the child for having shitty parents by shutting them out of the very programs you'd want to put them through to try and make up for said shitty parents. I mean seriously, what the fuck.

edited 18th Mar '12 11:10:49 PM by Pykrete

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#249: Mar 18th 2012 at 11:11:18 PM

Maybe we're thinking of this the wrong way. Why think in terms of bans, when we can think in terms of fines? You don't go to parenting class? Fine! Your kid bullies other kids? That's okay, fine!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
Pykrete NOT THE BEES from Viridian Forest Since: Sep, 2009
NOT THE BEES
#250: Mar 18th 2012 at 11:15:23 PM

Again, that's effectively punishing the child for the actions of the parents. By fining them, the child's already questionable standard of living just gets worse.


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