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Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#11551: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:39:01 AM

I think it's generally safe to assume Orochimaru will take the route that lets him get his mad scientist on.

So: would he conquer the world since the mask basically grants him immortality, or would he keep researching it? I mean Dio decided to make man-cats so I don't think one path necessarily defeats the other.

You'd have to have some good exposition to justify why everyone isn't using hamon for crazy bullshit, though. It's a very versatile power, and some of its applications run on pseudoscience like the magnetic leaves trick that Book Dumb Naruto would be less able to take advantage of than the average ninja.

I ran this by the Jojo thread once and asked how useful Hamon would be outside of Jojo. Conclusion was that it's actually impractical because it only really works against vampires. Kars was the only one able to make Hamon deadly against ordinary people without channeling it through an object.

The exposition would be that the Hamon tribes/users would've been wiped out back in Hashirama and Madara's time, with only a scant few members (Iruka) and practicioners (Sarutobi) still around. And while Hamon can be really good for turning a yoyo into a guided boomerang, ninjutsu provides similar and more useful abilities overall:

  • Hamon lets you walk on water or sharp objects, but most ninja can already do the latter, and chakra lets you stick to walls and other surfaces.
  • Hamon can possess targets through direct contact (we only saw that from someone who was adept with it aka Caesar), but genjutsu is much simpler and more malleable, and can be used from a longer distance.
  • Hamon increases your strength and speed like a Charles Atlas Superpower, but chakra training like what Sasuke and Naruto did with Kakashi and Jiraiya seems to do that automatically, and the difference is hugely in favor of chakra.
  • Hamon is something that requires a swift punch to the gut (which may not work) to unlock, or you have to have a natural talent for it (Iruka and Naruto would, Sarutobi's clan has a natural aptitude for learning things, Sasuke could copy it). Ninjutsu is something you teach to children and they can wield it proficently, without relying on their breathing.
  • Hamon let Zeppeli and Jonathan make a hanglider out of leaves. One of the basic ninjutsu exercises is magnetizing leaves, and we later see Sasuke grab a kunai with his sandal with the same method and hurl it with incredible force. Sasuke was a grunt ninja, a talented one, but still a grunt, while Zeppeli and Jonathan were at and near the pinnacle of their Hamon mastery, respectively.

So most ninja in the modern day are just taught ninjutsu, because that's simple and that's what works with very little perquisites, while Hamon is sort of a lost art, mainly because so few people can actually do it (Zeppeli tried to unlock it for Speedwagon and failed). Naruto, lacking the basic proficiency in ninjutsu, is taken in when he learns from Iruka that he's that 1 in a thousand capable of using Hamon, and he runs with it, because Hamon lets him do all sorts of fun stuff just by practicing his breathing, rather than balancing leaves on his forehead (which Hamon also lets him do)

And then it takes ridiculous levels of Hamon (like Kars's) to make it do anything to a non-human besides pummel them. Naruto, being Naruto and being powered by Ninja Giratina, has a lot of it, not quite Kars-level, but enough to make up for his lack of grace and tact. Didn't really have a good explanation for this besides "Nine-tails chakra mixing with Hamon energy amplifies the latter."

Hamon would, in my mind, basically be Naruto's crutch and replace the Shadow Clone jutsu. It could substitute for chakra while using the Rasengan (and probably be an easier tool to use since Hamon's explicit ability is making objects deadlier) - but like how no one ever exploited the Shadow Clone jutsu for farming because it takes too much chakra/might kill you, no one ever really exploited Hamon because no one other than maybe Rock Lee would have enough drive or resource to use it that way.

Of course though there'd be encounters with ninja experienced/powerful enough who do have access to Hamon. I just haven't decided who that should be - Obito doesn't need it, Madara definitely doesn't but he should have it, I figure Sasuke would gradually puzzle it out because Sharingan, not sure about Nagato. Really since the only requirement for Hamon is "natural talent/1 in a 1,000" one could basically argue Nagato/Sasuke/Madara/Itachi any villain of note having at least some knowledge of it.

edited 30th Oct '16 8:59:47 PM by Soble

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#11552: Oct 30th 2016 at 12:44:32 PM

I agree with most of those points, but I think you're underselling how powerful the hypnosis trick is. Genjutsu has a longer range, but it's also less powerful. People use genjutsu for things like headfucking their enemies and freezing them in place. Caesar used Hamon hypnosis to turn some random bystander into a brainwashed mook capable of putting up a credible fight against Joseph. Closest Naruto power I can think of is the Yamanaka secret technique, which makes the user pass out.

Plus, Hamon users can turn wine and soap bubbles into deadly weapons and make hair strong enough to deflect bullets. I'd expect ninjas to be all over that shit. I can certainly see it as a niche thing most ninjas don't bother with because ninjutsu is easier - especially if having chakra makes humans immune to the hypnosis trick - but there are enough ninjas who go around using weird, high-investment tricks like combat acupuncture that I don't think it would ever go into full "lost art" territory or get written off as only good against vampires.

On another note, if you're gonna play up the rarity of people able to use Hamon I think that undercuts the subversion of "Naruto gets a super speshul uberpowerful ability."

edited 30th Oct '16 12:51:47 PM by rikalous

Soble Since: Dec, 2013
#11553: Oct 30th 2016 at 9:10:29 PM

On another note, if you're gonna play up the rarity of people able to use Hamon I think that undercuts the subversion of "Naruto gets a super speshul uberpowerful ability."

Well I think the subversion is more that Naruto has a new ability but isn't great with it. Usually when Naruto gets a super special awesome power he masters it in the first 2-3 chapters and proceeds to own the book on ninja-ing - and he's the only person who has it so few people can actually challenge him.

As for the hamon possession, maybe you're right - fortunately, I couldn't picture Naruto readily kissing anyone. I had part of a scene written where Lee's introduction involved him blowing Sakura a hamon kiss and having her beat the stuffing out of Naruto and Sasuke instead, but that was as far as I went with it.

As for ninja not using it, again, arguable - yeah Hamon can do awesome stuff like turn wine into bullets, but why do that when you can throw shuriken or do that crazy wire stuff Sasuke did in Part 1, or channel electricity through your hand? Though, that's not really any convincing, new material, so maybe it's a good thing you pointed this out.

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#11554: Oct 30th 2016 at 11:43:20 PM

On why people would use hamon instead of normal ninja stuff, look at Haku and his needles. They are just straight-up shittier at killing things than the throwing knives everybody else uses. Sasuke manages to avoid a dozen deathblows with them before he's properly unlocked his eyehax, and I am not seeing even Mr. Rookie of the Year running around with an equivalent number of knives sticking out of him. All they give in exchange for this loss in pure killing power is the ability to pull off situationally-useful effects like the feign death trick and probably some others that weren't helpful with anything onscreen. I figure hamon uses is a similar kind of thing.

Plus, I imagine ninjas find it handy to be able to pull out some weird bullshit the other guy's not used to seeing.

Ironypus from Australia Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#11555: Oct 31st 2016 at 4:17:22 PM

There's also the fact that Hamon slows down your aging, which I imagine would be pretty popular.

rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#11556: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:29:12 PM

Assuming people figure out that that's a thing. You gotta keep up your hamon breathing for years and years without dying to see any effects, and then you gotta work out from a presumably small sample size that it's the hamon doing it.

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#11557: Oct 31st 2016 at 6:39:20 PM

Also to be fair: Why wouldn't a monk somewhere figure it out? They're totally into the whole asceticism stuff.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
Ironypus from Australia Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#11558: Nov 2nd 2016 at 7:25:20 AM

It can't be too hard to figure out why the group of fifty year olds look and move like they're in their early twenties, once you quiz them about their families, habits, skills, etc. and there's one blatant common point. Yeah that wouldn't actually be evidence, but that's what testing is for. Even if the testing takes ages this would all have been figured out a hundred years ago, hopefully.

Hyp3rB14d3 Since: Jan, 2001
#11559: Nov 2nd 2016 at 7:41:52 AM

Orochimaru would be all over that.

GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#11560: Nov 2nd 2016 at 3:49:50 PM

That is only if by some miracle that somebody with the ability to create long term plans and not named uchiha. Also didn't the monks already have their special ninjutsu that only they learned or could teach.

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#11561: Nov 2nd 2016 at 4:50:28 PM

Well, this is fanfic, so we can make them smarter.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
rikalous World's Cutest Direwolf from Upscale Mordor (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
World's Cutest Direwolf
#11562: Nov 2nd 2016 at 11:34:46 PM

[up][up][up][up]Fair. I imagine they were thrown off at first by the people who only turn on hamon breathing occasionally and so age at about the standard rate. (Goddammit Joseph.)

Way it probably plays out is that ninjas of a certain age learn hamon breathing for the age slowing and rely on whatever techniques they've been using for years for the actual combat parts.

GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#11563: Nov 3rd 2016 at 4:10:18 PM

It's not a case of needing to make them smarter though just them actually useing their brains to plan ahead instead of just doing the here and now.

[up] Though that ideal works or have all or most ninja do the basic breathing and maybe some small things but mainly focusing on their ninjutsu or whatever.

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#11564: Nov 3rd 2016 at 4:11:45 PM

The supposed super genius' acts of genius were frequently summarized as "Shikamaru displayed basic observation and/or deduction skills".

Yes, it is about making them smarter.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#11565: Nov 3rd 2016 at 6:01:20 PM

And almost completely predicted how two people were going to act. Also the dumb ones can go everyone has yang(I think it's yang anyway) Kuybi chakra so someone can connect to that and through that teleport everyone.

My point was also on their long term planing skill only which isn't really linked in how smart someone is even if cannon Naruto people who are good to great at self study are apparently genius and someone who terrible at it is a idiot.

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#11566: Nov 3rd 2016 at 6:15:25 PM

Long term planning is absolutely linked into how smart you are. If you're not smart you can't.

Furthermore, Shikamaru's 'super genius' might not be exactly impressive compared to real world standards, but it is enough to run mental circles around everyone around him.

And of course the dumb ones can make that connection (which they pulled straight out of their ass by the by), because the plot needed them to.

That's also the reason for their stupidity, the plot needed them to be dumb in order to work.

Naruto is one massive, giant Idiot Plot, it only works because everyone involved is a complete idiot. And this is not uncommon - hell, Dragon Ball, the most well known Shonen Action series ever, is also a colossal Idiot Plot.

The difference?

The guys in Naruto aren't supposed to be as dumb as the plot makes them be.

edited 3rd Nov '16 6:17:22 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#11567: Nov 3rd 2016 at 7:53:05 PM

Not everyone just most of the group and long term planing isn't needed to be smart or at least half of the people I met would not of got as far as they did.

Also the plot is not needs them to be dumb most of the plot works without that though some of it does.

Also there's a difference between idiot hero(dragon ball) and brain dead most of the time/ somewhat to decent smart(Naruto)

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#11568: Nov 3rd 2016 at 7:58:16 PM

I cannot parse your post. Either I am very sleepy, or it is incomprehensible, either way, I will need clarification of what you're actually trying to say.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#11569: Nov 3rd 2016 at 8:03:21 PM

If you're sleepy, then I must be sleepwalking, because I couldn't make heads or tails out of any of that.

Ssj3Gojira Arashi Shigehito from The Event Horizon Since: May, 2011 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Arashi Shigehito
#11570: Nov 3rd 2016 at 8:12:21 PM

I mean, plot is really the only reason why anything in fiction happens to begin with, so using it as an argument to prove stupidity really isn't viable.

Let's see if you can get past my Beelzemon. Mephiles, WARP SHINKA!
GOI god of insanity from everywhere/nowhere Since: Jul, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
god of insanity
#11571: Nov 3rd 2016 at 8:14:54 PM

It 3 in the morning here so I try to remember to relook over my point and place it it this post tomorrow if I remember.

The first point was roughy from what I've seen there is none to little connection between the ability to make long term plans and smarts.

The second was not the eintire plot requires the characters to be idiots only some of it.

The third was their is a massive difference between a a show where lots of the people in it are idiots and one where the level of intelligence the characters have change massively.

edited 4th Nov '16 4:15:09 PM by GOI

The distance between insanity and genius is measured only by success. Insanity runs in my family. It practically gallops.
IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#11572: Nov 3rd 2016 at 8:38:05 PM

[up][up]It's not, and if you think that, well, it explains a great many things.

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari
RBomber Since: Nov, 2010
#11573: Nov 3rd 2016 at 10:16:54 PM

[up]Well, if nothing else, plotting can be a proof on why writer/ author is brain-damaged beyond repair. tongue

(INB 4 Kishimoto is worse writer than 50ShadesOfGrey author)

NapoleonDeCheese Since: Oct, 2010
#11574: Nov 6th 2016 at 6:56:27 AM

I don't know, I think in Fifty Shades the creepy guy at least didn't try to outright kill the female protagonist, and they didn't marry and have a child after that, or did they?

edited 6th Nov '16 6:56:43 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

IAmNotCreativeEnough himitsu keisatsu from asa kara ban made omae o miru Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
himitsu keisatsu
#11575: Nov 6th 2016 at 7:47:07 AM

It's got sequels, so it's very much a possibility that it might have happened.

But you know, at least the fifty shades guy is there and actually does stuff to emotionally manipulate her. Sasuke doesn't even do that, Sakura emotionally manipulates herself. I'm not entirely sure which is worse.

edited 6th Nov '16 7:47:21 AM by IAmNotCreativeEnough

himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimari

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