I can name standout examples of the harem genre, same as you named some for shonen action. Tenchi Muyo, Oh My Goddess!, Love Hina. That doesn't prove shit about whether harem as a genre is better, worse, or about the same compared to shonen action as a genre, because that is not actually a thing that can be proven by comparing a couple examples. We can argue about writing quality from here until next year - and probably will, let's be honest - but it's not something genuinely provable.
Tell you what, let's find someone who doesn't like shonen action and have them read/watch one of your list, and then find someone who doesn't like harem and have them read/watch one of the big names in harem. See if there's actually a difference in reactions.
edited 13th Sep '16 3:51:17 PM by rikalous
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Honestly, I didn't even want to bother to do that much, because he'll just say that they aren't comparable and inferior... because they are harem series.
We can sit here arguing writing quality, as you said, but the thing is: He isn't interested in seeing another perspective.
He just wants to be told he's right. And I ain't gonna do that.
edited 13th Sep '16 3:53:07 PM by IAmNotCreativeEnough
himitsu keisatsu seifu chokuzoku kokka hoanbu na no da himitsu keisatsu yami ni magireru supai katsudou torishimariYou may have a point that it is hard to prove the quality of writing but my examples are genuine classics that can get people into anime/manga and you don't even need to be a hardcore fan.
But those examples are you mentioned are classic in a more niche form (even withing a niche community like anime/manga).
Plus I never said that there weren't classics, just that there's no comparison.
Its like trying to compare Star Wars to Sex And The City. One most people know, the other if they're lucky, heard it in passing.
I'm not condemning people for liking harem, its just the lesser work IMO.
Must be nice from that glass house.
edited 13th Sep '16 4:10:40 PM by Archivist10
Does it fucking matter. IANCE is too narrow minded to even care so is best to drop this.
edited 13th Sep '16 5:16:01 PM by TenshinG
Hi names Tenshin G, I have some particular set of skills, skills that involve writing cringe-worthy fanfiction, and obsessive fan-artI am not calling fanfiction inferior
> As far as I'm concerned harem is at the bottom of what anime and manga can be.
> Its a genre that belongs in the realms of fanfiction more than actual published work.
This was all said in the same post.
Do you fucking bother to check what you've written before you press the Send button? How can you say something like this in the same breath and then have the galls to say you aren't putting down the same thing we have devoted a forum and hours of our time to work on?
You are saying something that is the worst a medium has to offer in your opinion belongs to another medium instead. How do you expect to say something like that and NOT give the impression you are bashing?
There is nothing in the harem genre that can compete with Fullmetal Alchemist, Gurren Lagann, One Piece, Dragonball etc.
Oh yeah. Dragonball. That pinnacle of human writing. That peak and be-all of coherence, airtight world building, and careful planning.
Even IANCE, the most hardcore and heartfelt DB fan I've ever met, won't say DB is objectively well written, which arguably is the whole point of Dragonball. Toriyama Akira has basically admitted Dragonball was something he always was making up on the fly and with heavy editorial influence that boy sure showed up. It's not supposed to be the masterpiece you are hailing as. It's So Bad, It's Good running on Rule of Awesome, and that's pretty much all it is, which may suffice for some and not for others. Like pro wrestling but with more beams.
Same for One Piece, of which I was a major fan for a long while and still hold fond memories of. Gurren Lagann I've only watched the first movie, but I found it to be 'That was all?' and I've met lots of people in the Internet saying it's overrated. I won't say it's bad from what I've seen, but neither will I say it from a Ranma or Tenchi Muyo movie. Scratch that, I found Tenchi Muyo In Love! to be better than the Gurren Lagann movie.
I'll hear you out as soon as you have proof to go alongside your statement regarding the genre.
Pot, meet kettle. Since basically parroting 'action shounen is automatically best' won't count as proof. Which doesn't stop you from bashing another genre because you don't favor it personally.
At least I'm making an argument and giving evidence, you're just living up to your name.
Again, parroting the same arguments over and over and saying things like 'X has no personality, Y does' is no evidence either. You know what, Sturgeon's Law basically says 90% of everything is mediocre or crap, and overall I agree with it. So 90% of harem leads have bland personalities, you know what, so do 90% of fighting protagonists who basically amount to copies of each other with interchangeable small different traits... just like harem leads. It's telling harem and action shounen most often sell in the same magazines, and you know why? Because they aim for the same audiences. You're just as likely to find crap and good stuff in either.
Its like trying to compare Star Wars to Sex and the City. One most people know, the other if they're lucky, heard it in passing.
For someone who just a page ago made a moaning argument about Shades of Grey being popular despite being shit, now you suddenly place a lot of stock on 'popularity equals quality' as a discussion point.
Also, reminder Star Wars is still the franchise that gave us Jar Jar Binks and The Star Wars Holiday Special.
You know what, the thing with debating with you is, you keep dynamiting your own points without even realizing it.
edited 13th Sep '16 5:39:15 PM by NapoleonDeCheese
Did archivist really just say you need to be a hardcore anime fan to have heard of Love Hina, Oh! My Goddess, Tenchi Muyo, Ranma 1/2, The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, and Mahou Sensei Negima?
Things like Ranma and Negima even count as fighting and harem series at once, because the thing is, these genres aren't as black and white, cleanly defined as surface views would lead superficial people and/or casuals to believe. Part of the appeal of a really good story is it can cross between audiences and genres and diversify.
Tenchi Muyo! and Nadesico are part space opera (and Nadesico also throws mecha for good measure). El Hazard and Saber Marionette are half pure good ole adventure action series. Suzumiya Haruhi is half sci-fi fantasy babble and sheer rom comedy. Series like Rune Soldier Louie and Vandread play with heavy harem-like tropes but are mainly swords and sorcery and space warfare stories respectively.
I'm more willing to believe the story of a Chosen One Panda is more realistic then a story about a pathetic loser who gets a bunch of hot women pining for him
Regarding this, you know, the former is still more over the top and unbelievable than the latter, even when they both strain credibility (just like, say, the superhero genre, where Willing Suspension of Disbelief is also a key part of the enjoyment). And I'll tell you why.
It's because the former relies on 'objective' in-universe factors. It forces us to first swallow the pill youngsters with not as much training and experience as their elders will always prove being superior to them, and not even only physically, but also better thinkers and planners in battle. While the later relies on a subjective factor like human emotions. Human emotions, especially visceral ones like love and hate coming from young people, aren't supposed to make full sense. That's why we're human beings and not Vulcans. Do harem stories often take that too far? Yeah, but the other end of that equation is just as guilty if not more of the equivalent thing in its own side, and it doesn't have the excuse of relying on a part of human behavior that is supposed to be erratic and often irrational to begin with.
You'll meet scores of people who have acted stupidly for love and falling for unworthy people during your life. Hell, you will probably be one at some point or another, just like most of us. You'll never, on the other hand, meet an awesome good and great Chosen One fated to save the world through innate superior skills before being old enough to drink legally.
edited 13th Sep '16 6:03:25 PM by NapoleonDeCheese
is this done
Incidentally, Archivist, I find it interesting that you bring up Star Wars as an example of a good piece of fiction, because the same kind of line you're peddling would stick it firmly in the Sci-Fi Ghetto, kept safely away from the True Art™. Which is an old and bullshit claim that has resurfaced many a time in many a form. It's bullshit when it's about animation, it's bullshit when it's about comics, it's bullshit when it's about Japanese animation and comics, it's bullshit when it's about comedies, it's bullshit when it's about fanfiction, it's bullshit when it's about shonen harem, it's bullshit when it's about shonen action, and it's gonna be bullshit when our descendants are being snobby about Betelgeusian thoughtforms. People are always trying to write off some medium or genre as inherently lesser, and it's never stopped some weirdos from going off and making good art with it anyway.
@Hyp3r: I have several friends who are anime/manga fans and whenever we talked about it, none of those ever pop up..
Also most videos I've found on the internet, at most tend to talk about only two of those.
NDC: True Dragonball is not perfect, but at times it can be brilliant in its simplicity because it brought forth so much originality and creativity.
One Piece, there's nothing that I can call outright awful about it. There are flaws but it is the best selling man ga for good reasons.
Of course you didn't like Gurren Lagann if you watched the film.
True that many harems are also battle manga or comedy or what have you, but the harem aspects are usually what drags down the quality of what could be much better. Highschool DXD and Nisekoi could be much better without the harem element.
Its like one youtuber said that haren 'is the ultimate proof that the author 'has no faith in the material that they are writing' just look at Sword Art Online and UQ Holder.
And I am not saying that fanfiction is bad, there are many fanfic writers who I think deserve to get paid for their brilliant writing,just as I'm insulted by the author of Fifty Shades who has the gall to want to be paid for that trite. I put harem around there, it is not really worth paying for.
Harem can be creative but its usually comes in small doses.
Although I am willing to be open minded that one genre is not necessarily better than the other, the simple fact of the matter is that one has a better track record than the other with giving us quality material (hint: its not harem).
edited 14th Sep '16 11:04:34 AM by Archivist10
Although I am willing to be open minded that one genre is not necessarily better than the other, the simple fact of the matter is that one has a better track record than the other with giving us quality material (hint: its not harem).
"I am not saying yes, except because I am saying yes, it is."
To make a long argument short, you still only can resort to parroting you think a given genre is automatically superior to another because in your opinion it is.
Its like one youtuber said
Oh, wow, one average random youtuber. Well, those sources of ultimate truth and wisdom surely trump any other counter argument, then.
edited 14th Sep '16 11:09:41 AM by NapoleonDeCheese
@Archivist: Using your friends' discussions about anime with you isn't a very good reference, as it's clear that you have a bias toward shounen action. Assuming your friends are similar to yourself, they may very well share this bias. And even if they don't, why would they bring up anime they know you won't like with you? Especially anime that are old enough to be considered classics? That's like me claiming Star Trek is unpopular just because my younger siblings haven't watched it, and thus never talk about it with me. Or them claiming Star Trek isn't popular because I rarely speak about it with them, as they have not watched it.
Bringing up You Tube channels as reference is slightly better, as the speaker is talking to a general audience, not tailoring their speech specifically to you. But only slightly. There's still bias, but this time it's coming from you. You have no interest in the harem genre, so you won't seek videos about it. You have interest in shounen action series, so you likely seek out videos speaking about those. Why would a You Tube video about shounen action anime bring up harem anime except incidentally?
edited 14th Sep '16 11:31:10 AM by Hyp3rB14d3
And indeed, that is your opinion. It is not an unbiased analysis of the two genres, it is a personal analysis based on your own subjective experience. Count the number of each type of film that you've seen, and I'm willing to bet you've seen far more superhero movies than chick flicks.
And there is nothing wrong with that. You clearly like the former over the latter.
However, to take that and claim that the superhero genre is objectively better than the chick flick genre is to fail to take anyone else's opinions into account, to pass your own likes and dislikes off as law.
It may not be entirely objective, but it is neither entirely bias.
Because its a conclusion I've come to from genuinely looking through several manga and anime. I;m not going to say all shonen are good, because they're not (Fairy Tail) but just in my experience I have simply not encountered a harem anime/manga that can match Fullmetal Alchemist, Neon Genesis Evangelion or Puella Magi Madoka Magica that's all.
Ragrdless, here's a question: if you could pair each of the Konoha twelve with a character from another anime/manga, who would you pair with whom?
edited 14th Sep '16 4:58:29 PM by Archivist10
but just in my experience I have simply not encountered a harem anime/manga that can match Fullmetal Alchemist, Neon Genesis Evangelion or Puella Magi Madoka Magica that's all.
And again, we all must bow to your personal experience and tastes to be the all end all discussion finisher. Your specific words keep saying one thing, in that you asumedly don't presume to have the objective higher ground, but then your tone and overall wording keep saying the opposite right afterwards, which I must admit is fascinating in a morbid way. It's some sort of talent, I guess. Not sure it's one anyone should cultivate, but I'm sure you'd do well at politics.
And now, on that note, you want to quickly change the topic back while you still can pretend you have the last word based on that pretended tastes/perception superiority. Which to be fair, probably is overdue by now Because Naruto Fanfic Thread after all.
Wait, let me say it like this:
YOUR opinion.
We don't experience reality, we experience our perception of reality. And I'm in this thread to experience good, or at least interesting, fanfiction and fanfiction ideas. If you, Archivist, or any other gentlemen that I know slightly longer, fail to provide any, I will politely (at first) ask you to shut up, leave this thread, and go have a life.
Rather than smart, I'd prefer to be wise. It would let me be silly more often.Oh, right. My apologies. I just haven't been able to read the forums for a few weeks, and this wasn't the most pleasant archive binge I've ever had. I'm considering to extend my threat active indefinitely, however. And it's a threat towards you too, IANCE, because the time spent on arguments like that can be better spent on something else. Including other things that one can do over internet.
Speaking of which, I haven't checked your fanfics in a while. Anything new there? Or rather, how old is your latest update to Naruto-related fanfics?
Rather than smart, I'd prefer to be wise. It would let me be silly more often.

Which part of 'provided evidence' do you not understand?
You dare accuse me of bias whilst you do nothing to defend you argument but say 'nah mine is better'?
I gave examples of noteworthy work from the genre that is good from an objective point of view even if one isn't a fan of the genre. Any 'classic' harem are really only classic if you like the genre.