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Tanrage Since: Jul, 2010
#201: Aug 14th 2012 at 3:02:23 PM

What really kills any sympathy for her I might have is this, her whole turn to the dark side isn't motivated by some great personal tragedy or injustice. It's because her EX-boyfriend moved on and hooked up with someone else. As stated above, this is a selfish little temper tanrum with not one redeeming quality to be said for it.

Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#202: Aug 14th 2012 at 8:19:13 PM

Yeah, because the straw that breaks the camel's back is always the most significant part of it all.

it's everything else in her history that was significant, and everything else that was fucking bad and dark and sympathetic. The deal with the parents? Tommy was the trigger, not the bullet.

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polooglu Since: Nov, 2010
#203: Aug 15th 2012 at 5:48:03 AM

I think her motivations are beleivable enough, in that she's just fucked up in the head slightly due to her truama's, but again, I just think treating her like a "good guy" after all she's done isn't justified. At best, she's a very sympathetic villain.

Nicknacks Ding-ding! Going down... from Land Down Under Since: Oct, 2010
Ding-ding! Going down...
#204: Aug 15th 2012 at 6:14:33 AM

Has she been treated like a "good guy"?

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polooglu Since: Nov, 2010
#205: Aug 15th 2012 at 6:21:21 AM

Not yet, but then again we only got to see a few seconds of her post-rampage. I just don't want the show to try and make her look better because she's a main character, which I'm afraid could happen.

TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#206: Aug 15th 2012 at 11:46:50 AM

I disagree with the addiction analogy. She's "addicted" to using her power because it's a part of her, just like our hands are a part of us. Can you imagine going a whole day without using your hands? Or not speaking to anyone for a week? Not reading anything for a month?

Nina's ability to push is part of what makes her who she is. Perhaps it does no absolve her of all guilt, but calling her a villain? No.

In fact, it's that kind of reasoning that makes me agree with parish to some extent. The government is the real bad guy here.

They justify nearly every single one of Parish's complaints. They try to destroy Alphas, and when they fail at that they try to bury their existence. If they fail at that they try to prevent them from being born. They lock Alphas up for the smallest infraction without due process or a fair trial.

Every action I've seen Parish take is out of self preservation, and I can't fault him for that anymore than I can fault a man for pulling a gun on a robber in self defense.

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#207: Aug 15th 2012 at 12:06:19 PM

Nina uses her ability to steal (an original Van Gogh is worth tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars), sexually assault men and her best friend, injure people and place their lives in jeopardy, and risk their jobs. Not to mention she knows, intimately, the long-term effects of using her powers on the same person over time, but she was willfully blind to the fact that she was doing it to her childhood boyfriend with probably similar end results.

Sure, she's got a heck of a Freudian Excuse, but this season she's moved out of Anti-Hero and into sympathetic Villain territory, at least for me. She may redeem herself to me, but it's going to take more than just feeling remorse for her actions.

edited 15th Aug '12 12:07:15 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#208: Aug 15th 2012 at 12:08:36 PM

Rosen is just as much to blame as Nina. Frankly, I was hoping we would see Nina switch over to Parish's side.

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#209: Aug 15th 2012 at 12:13:34 PM

Just as much to blame for what?

edited 15th Aug '12 12:13:40 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
polooglu Since: Nov, 2010
#210: Aug 15th 2012 at 12:25:42 PM

[up][up][up][up]I'm sorry no. ccoa's got it perfect here. Nina isn't like Parish. Yeah, her powers are apart of her, but that's not why it's like an addiction, it's like an adiction becuase she completely misuses them. I could understand if Nina really wanted something bad enough and accidently pushed someone with really meaning to, like her first time doing it to her dad, but the fact is Nina's always 100% aware when she pushing someone, and is robbing them of free will. Nina has used her abilities so far to alienate people, nearly kill people and make things easier for herself. This goes all the way back to her very first appearence, wherein she forces a cop who was just doing his job to eat a ticket he'd given her. The cop wasn't a bad guy and Nina only did it to avoid facing responsibilty for her god damn actions. Rosen is at absolutely NO fault here, all he ever tries to do is help Nina, and granted had he not been absent from her for eight months she'd probably be fine, but the fact is he tries to help again the second he gets back and all she does is ignore him.

The government, while not inherently nice, is not a bad guy here either. They detain Alphas yes but only the ones who do bad things. It's not like government agents are sent to round up any Alpha they become aware of, just the ones who do bad things and NEED to be put away. No it is not for the "smallest infractions" it's for hurting people if not killing them. Once it becomes to bleak they kill them yes but they're OUTLAWS, and it's no different than how we deal with regular criminals. The whole lack of due procces thing is a little bad, but, keep in mind that it was only a few episode ago that most people found out about Alphas, and holding any sort of court case for these crimes would be plenty difficult without revealing how they used abilities.

Anyway, getting back to Nina, she doesn't do what she does to preserve herself like Parish, she does it to be frivilous and make herself happy. She even pushes herself to achieve this end! Outside of a mission, has Nina used her abilities to directly help another person? NO! Granted that's why she had a job that involved helping people by stopping criminals, but she quit doing that just cuase she felt like it. If she's not gonna use her ability constructively like the others, DONT USE IT AT ALL. Yeah, yeah "using her ability is like a person using their own hands" or whatever, but when that person uses their hands to do absolutely nothing but steal, threaten, and manipulate people, I wouldn't feel to guilty about putting them in handcuffs!

edited 15th Aug '12 12:30:41 PM by polooglu

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#211: Aug 15th 2012 at 4:39:28 PM

Every action I've seen Parish take is out of self preservation, and I can't fault him for that anymore than I can fault a man for pulling a gun on a robber in self defense.

Wait, this is blatently untrue. In the S1 finale we saw him deliberately set up a large number of people in his own organization to get into a deadly firefight with government officials in order to wipe out the "moderate" members of Red Flag and kick-start an Alpha-Muggle war. That's not self preservation by any warped definition of the term.

Parish may well be a Well-Intentioned Extremist, but he's still a villain.

And if it's not "okay" for the government to try to prevent the birth of Alphas, it's equally not okay for Red Flag to try to stimulate the birth of Alphas. You're painting the government black when they are grey, and painting the villains white when they are also grey.

There's few or no white hats in this series. It's Grey-and-Grey Morality and a deconstruction of super heroes.

edited 15th Aug '12 4:40:09 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
deathpigeon Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
#212: Aug 15th 2012 at 4:50:03 PM

I'm really excited to see where they're going to take Kat's storyline. I'm hoping they'll add her to the team, eventually...

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#213: Aug 15th 2012 at 5:04:40 PM

It says a lot about the other Alphas when the teen runaway seems to be one of the best adjusted we've seen. Although her being upset when listening to Rosen's music suggests she may be a Stepford Smiler, instead.

But yeah, I like Kat. She's a fun character. And one smart cookie.

edited 15th Aug '12 5:04:53 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
polooglu Since: Nov, 2010
#214: Aug 15th 2012 at 5:15:09 PM

Rosen and the team (sans Nina) may be the only white hats in the whole series.

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#215: Aug 15th 2012 at 5:35:38 PM

I'm not sure I agree with that entirely. Rachel, Gary, and probably Hicks are white hats, but the others have all done some morally dubious things, I believe.

Rosen used his daughter's ability to keep his marriage together and manipulate his wife. He also is complicit in Bigamham(sp?), which does not only incarcerate criminal Alphas, as we saw with Gary, and would be morally dubious even if they did. Bill beat the crap out of one of his colleagues and is also okay with Bigamham. Kat (assuming she joins, which seems likely) was in the inner circle of an illegal fighting operation.

I'd lump those three into various classes of anti heroes, myself.

edited 15th Aug '12 5:36:47 PM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
polooglu Since: Nov, 2010
#216: Aug 15th 2012 at 6:18:09 PM

  • Binghamton.

Bill really stradles the line for me, and I wouldn't say he and Rosen are ok with Binghamton so much as they can't do anything about it, though Bill seems to generally more apathetic than Rosen, but I think that's cause he veiws what they do from a policeman's standpoint: i.e, they arrest criminals and that's their job and what happens after that doesn't concern him.

Deboss I see the Awesomeness. from Awesomeville Texas Since: Aug, 2009
I see the Awesomeness.
#217: Aug 16th 2012 at 1:47:08 AM

Hm, I think none of them were aware of the chipping which is what really pushed it over the line for them. Other than that, it seemed like a prison in general from what I caught, other than the "high security" room and the generic rumblings of generic evil. That said, as a government in a world with a masquerade, you've really only got two choices: too laughably incompetent to notice it or too morally grey to break it.note  However, it's a popular use and provides conflict.

Kat (assuming she joins, which seems likely) was in the inner circle of an illegal fighting operation.

Unless they actually do force people to fight to the death, I'm inclined to believe that it's only illegal because they can't get any kind of legal status in the fights because they're on the wrong end of the masquerade. Otherwise, it seems to be fights between consenting adults.

Fight smart, not fair.
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#218: Aug 16th 2012 at 6:10:59 AM

Including a guy who spits acid at people when he's losing doesn't strike me as particularly safe - it would be too easy for someone to be maimed or killed. Even if every other Alpha set his ability to stun, allowing that guy to continue to fight pushes it into morally dark area for me.

edited 16th Aug '12 6:11:18 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
metaphysician Since: Oct, 2010
#219: Aug 16th 2012 at 9:40:06 AM

And if it's not "okay" for the government to try to prevent the birth of Alphas, it's equally not okay for Red Flag to try to stimulate the birth of Alphas. You're painting the government black when they are grey, and painting the villains white when they are also grey.

Actually, I disagree with this logic. I haven't watched the show, and I don't doubt that the government is in a marginally better moral position than Red Flag. However, on a basic level, "trying to cause Alpha births" and "trying to prevent Alpha births" are *not* morally interchangeable. In both cases, you have functionally unethical scientific experiments, done without informed consent. However, in one case, the goal is to benefit the child, while the other, it is to diminish the child. Trying to reduce the birth rate of Alphas is no different, ethically, from trying to reduce the birth rate of athletic or intelligent people; doing it specifically for reasons of greater governmental control makes it even worse.

Home of CBR Rumbles-in-Exile: rumbles.fr.yuku.com
ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#220: Aug 16th 2012 at 9:45:33 AM

Given that all powers in this series have drawbacks, some of them crippling, I would seriously question that causing people to be born as an Alpha is benefiting them.

The most recent monster-of-the-week, who was suffering from very rapid aging due to his super speed, would certainly rather have been born normal.

edited 16th Aug '12 9:47:12 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
polooglu Since: Nov, 2010
#221: Aug 16th 2012 at 9:47:47 AM

[up][up]That's a good point, but still, doesn't it just seem wrong that someone would be able to add something to your child without consent? Shouldn't people decide if they want their kid to have a special ability that goes beyon what any other person could possibly do. Really, what purpouse dose stimulating the birth of Alphas serve? Alphas will be born when they're born, but forcing changes onto someones family before that family member is even born is just 32 flavors of wrong. For all we know, Red Flag just wants more Alphas around so that they can excercise some control.

edited 16th Aug '12 10:04:16 AM by polooglu

Teebert kingslayer from boxcar's noggin Since: Sep, 2009
kingslayer
#222: Aug 16th 2012 at 10:12:58 AM

Thing is, there's no guaranteed way to produce an Alpha, there's just drugs that cause birth defects, some of which are Alpha abilities. Government doesn't necessarily want to prevent more Alphas from being born, they don't want there to be a bunch of birth defects going on. Red Flag, however, doesn't care if the normal humans end up with birth defects, they simply want to create more Alphas. In this particular instance, the government is in the right.

edited 16th Aug '12 10:14:49 AM by Teebert

"Teebs is a total grump, but he's usually right." - NLK
TheProffesor The Professor from USA Since: Jan, 2011
#223: Aug 16th 2012 at 11:07:18 AM

[up][up][up]He was born normal. He was the product of mad science.

Personally, I disagree with both sides. Rosen needs to wake up and get away from the government and Parish as soon as possible and figure out his own solution to the problem. The government's plan is to bury the existence of Alphas and Parish's plan is to kill all the normal people before they kill him. Both are equally bad solutions, but Parish at least has some justification for his.

Also, you guys are seriously glossing over how bad the government is.

"It's hard to do due process with Alphas" is not an excuse not to do so. They do lock Alphas up for minor infractions. Look at what happened with Gary! He reacts violently to change and the next thing you know, he's in prison with the chip in the back of his head. No trial, no advocate.

And what about Dr. Rosen? They lock him up in an asylum for trying to tell the truth.

Those actions are beyond gray. If there is a villain in the series, it's definately the government.

Who does Rosen work for again? Oh right...

edited 16th Aug '12 11:16:38 AM by TheProffesor

ccoa Ravenous Sophovore from the Sleeping Giant Since: Jan, 2001
Ravenous Sophovore
#224: Aug 16th 2012 at 11:36:51 AM

[up][up]Unless I'm misremembering, they were developing a drug specifically to prevent Alpha mutations, not birth defects in general.

[up]Both groups have (weak) justifications for what they do. Alphas are dangerous, in case you missed the ones that kill and cause mayhem on a weekly basis. Having a justification, however, does not make your actions morally right.

They're grey because, while both groups have done villainous actions, the groups are also Well Intentioned Extremists and have done good things, as well.

And you still haven't answered my question: What is Rosen just as responsible for?

edited 16th Aug '12 11:38:37 AM by ccoa

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
polooglu Since: Nov, 2010
#225: Aug 16th 2012 at 12:02:00 PM

Speaking of (weak) justifications, in Gary's case, he's an Alpha who physically assualted an agent during a situation where just about every other Alpha in the joint was doing the same thing and getting arrested or killed for it.

You talk about how evil the government is, but keep in mind we only know about four government affiliates personally: two of which are just fine, one of whom was a total asshole but still not completely evil, and one of whom handeled her situation very poorly but still isn't a bad person. Like I said, I would understand the whole "government = the worse evil" arguement if the government went around shooting any alpha they found, but as it stands, arresting the ones who kill and hurt people (with or without due proccess) is just about the best way they could go about it. Rosen should leave the government? And do...what? Look, even if Rosen doesn't agree with what the government does, his team has been able to stop things from escalating to an even more terrible place. It's only through his affiliation with the Government that Rosen is capable of doing ANYTHING, let alone what he always wants.

Lets keep in mind that we have NO confirmation that the government wants all Alphas gone. The fact is they probably wouldn't have a prison for them if most of them didn't go around killin' people (whatever their excuse for it may be). Parish however just goes around blowing up trains and folks and setting up his own Red Flag members to get slaughtered, using his own logic (however sound it may or may not be) to justify it. Does the government go around leave traps for Alphas who haven't done anything, or assainate a group of Alphas to "send a message"? That's pretty much what Parish does.

Are the government "good guys"? Almost definetly not, but are they in any way shap or form worse than Parish in terms of their actions? God no. They are easily the lesser of two evils in this situation, and while the way they treat Alpha's is occasionally a problem, the bigger problem has got to be the guy who justifies killing people with his small army of super-humans regardless of what they've actually done. I would any day live in a world where Alpha's are treated the way they are in the show than live in a world where someone like Parish is given any amount of control.

I have no idea wht I'm typing, by the way.

edited 16th Aug '12 12:06:46 PM by polooglu


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