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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#249926: Jul 23rd 2018 at 10:23:55 AM

Eh, it may be old news but I think it's still relevant.

And yes I completely agree on Kirsten Gilibrand, it's worth noting that she was the first Senator to suggest it thus proving once again that the suspicions of the populist left have no basis in reality.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 23rd 2018 at 1:25:39 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#249927: Jul 23rd 2018 at 10:34:09 AM

I always get Rand Paul and Paul Ryan confused, especially since Paul Ryan is a Randian.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Jul 23rd 2018 at 10:38:18 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#249928: Jul 23rd 2018 at 10:36:15 AM

Ryan is the one whose only recorded facial expressions are "insufferably smug" and "sad clown".

Edited by sgamer82 on Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:46:22 AM

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#249929: Jul 23rd 2018 at 10:44:18 AM

We still need an organization to handle immigration and customs. It's not like ICE as a concept is obsolete or horrible. The issue is twofold: leadership and culture.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#249930: Jul 23rd 2018 at 10:46:49 AM

ICE is only 15 years old, though. One solution I've heard: Create a Department of Labor agency that issues visas and investigates overstays and unauthorized employment. Create a unit of the FBI to fight trafficking and border crimes. Delegate removals to the Border Patrol, and that's it for ICE.

The problem with ICE is as you said: the culture of the agency and the rampant abuse. That's not changing no matter who puts the leash on them. It's a largely white supremacist organization who think nothing of the most heinous things they do. It's also constitutionally problematic as you give a Civil agency near criminal powers, the ability to hold suspects without warrants or proper oversight, and more.

Edited by Lightysnake on Jul 23rd 2018 at 10:48:38 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#249931: Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:21:13 AM

5 witnesses in the Manafort case have been granted full immunity at Mueller's request.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/23/politics/manafort-witnesses-immunity/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#249932: Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:34:05 AM

[up][up] Then you have the same problem you had before 9/11, where immigration and customs responsibilities are spread across half a dozen agencies and nothing gets done m.

An easier solution would be to eliminate the “immigrant removal” division within ICE and make them a purely investigative agency. Enforcement can be left to CBP or other agencies.

They should have sent a poet.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#249933: Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:45:37 AM

As far as I can tell ICE is pretty useless. It has been around for a fairly short time after all, and I am actually not quite sure if they do anything border control or the courts or the police can't handle just as well. Why not simply giving the border control more responsibility?

Edited by Swanpride on Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:45:50 AM

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#249934: Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:45:46 AM

At this point, the 'Brand' ICE is irreparably damaged, I'd argue.

Dissolving it and replacing it with a new, and far more clearly regulated and organized, Structure seems better than trying to fix it.

"You can reply to this Message!"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#249935: Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:48:02 AM

[up][up] They’re DHS’s main investigative body. You wouldn’t think so from the news but the majority of their agents don’t deal with deportation. When you hear about ICE agents wanting ICE to be dissolved or reformed, it’s people from those other parts of the agency who are tired of their coworkers making them look bad.

Like Fighteer mentioned, the problem is that there’s a pretty horrific institutional culture within the parts of the agency that do deal with deportation.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:50:43 AM

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#249936: Jul 23rd 2018 at 11:53:40 AM

ICE also handles human trafficking and child porn.

A lot of their agents have complained they've been taking off slavery and rape cases to send back immigrants.

Because ICE is just a tool to hurt immigrants and refugees under Trump.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#249937: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:00:48 PM

And that's the crux of it. No one who says (sans the crazy fringe who don't count) 'Abolish ICE' means 'Don't do THOSE' Jobs.

But due to Trump, ICE will forever be saddled with being the guys who brought toddlers before a judge, separated children and their parents and basically became the damn Gestapo for brown people.

ICE, the name, the brand, the identity, needs to be gone.

"You can reply to this Message!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#249938: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:02:14 PM

The Department of Homeland Security itself is an unnecessary pointless organization that has continually been a thorn in the side of human rights activists as well as liberty as a whole because it was made as a agency to look like it was doing something about terror.

It was also stocked with the dregs of the agencies which it was ostensibly supposed to help but just confused.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:04:11 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#249939: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:02:34 PM

'Abolish iCE' is shorthand for 'Rebuild the DHS,' in essence.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#249940: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:03:13 PM

Is there any benefit to the DOHS itself?

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:03:16 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#249941: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:06:57 PM

[up]x4 I can get behind getting rid of the name, but the general formation of the agency makes sense. We don't want a return to the pre-9//11 mess of agencies taking care of this stuff.

[up] After 9/11 a committee found that the agencies tasked with domestic security weren't adequate because they were too fragmented and therefore unable to share information and cases.

They should have sent a poet.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#249942: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:09:05 PM

[up]Not just the name. Burn it to the ground and build it up anew. If you just change the name but keep the culture and people that led to it, you're not doing anything at all.

Go fucking Denazification on it!

Edited by 3of4 on Jul 23rd 2018 at 9:09:31 PM

"You can reply to this Message!"
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#249943: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:18:39 PM

I agree with 3of4 - saying that ICE is worth keeping around badly misunderstands the public's view of it. If Kirsten Gillibrand feels she can say that we should abolish ICE, that's evidence that many, many people want ICE gone - if your response to that is to say "Actually, ICE does some good stuff", then quite frankly, you are terrible at PR.

At the minimum, I'd say that ICE needs to go, and the government needs to both ensure that its human rights abuses are not repeated by any agency, and that system is purged of any who would perpetuate them.

Oh God! Natural light!
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#249944: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:20:00 PM

[up][up] We really just need some housecleaning. There's a good reason for the agency to exist, but re-branding and clearing out some of the toxic leadership is long overdue.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:19:40 PM

They should have sent a poet.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#249945: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:25:15 PM

...Some is the understatement of the Month, my friend.

Burn it all down and rebuild it from zero. Or else the rot never goes truly away.

"You can reply to this Message!"
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#249946: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:26:03 PM

So in unrelated news, the Hill Cumorah pageant - the Mormon festival celebrating Joseph Smith's revelation for the Book of Mormon - is in full swing.

I mention this because a church down the road from my workplace (which is within a half-hour drive to the Hill Cumorah) currently has a rented billboard truck out front reading - "What Mormons Don't Tell .com". This leads to a site run by "Christian Research and Counsel" and is aimed exclusively at clamping down on Mormon apostasy. Just felt like sharing my frustration.

Oh yeah - and they're officially a tax-exempt organization based in Florida, according to a quick Google search.

Edited by ironballs16 on Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:37:38 PM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#249947: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:28:03 PM

[up][up]Which is what Gilibrand suggested, that ICE be abolished and replaced by an organization with a similar mission but minus the rot. Just food for thought.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 23rd 2018 at 3:28:21 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#249948: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:28:13 PM

[up][up][up] It's a massive, Going-Out-of-Business Sale at ICE's Racist Scumbags Emporium! Everything Must Go!

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Jul 23rd 2018 at 3:30:01 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#249949: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:29:47 PM

[up][up]And I agree with that, not some half-assed 'new name and we fire the 20 worst offenders' kind of whitewashing BS.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#249950: Jul 23rd 2018 at 12:30:26 PM

[up]Agreed.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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