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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248476: Jul 5th 2018 at 8:58:31 PM

[up][up] Maybe take a leaf from Theodore Roosevelt's book, and frame conservation as a "National Duty".

No, although there are exceptions, First Past the Post voting systems, as well as the general shape of American Politics, generally means a third party just ends up splitting the vote. Better to stand United and keep the crazies out.

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 5th 2018 at 12:00:32 PM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#248477: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:00:16 PM

It seems like those days are gone now. The Earth exists to be used for our ends, and we shouldn't worry about replenishing it because God will or whatever.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248478: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:05:08 PM

[up] that's what they were dealing with back in his time, and arguably even worse than today.

We had nearly wiped out the Buffalo, recklessly dilapidated our great forests, wiped out the Eastern Elk, befowled our streams and rivers.

He and Pinchot nearly singlehandedly, brought the word "conservation" into the American Conciousness, into a country where most people just assumed that resources were something to be used without question about whether it was sustainable and helped shape the way we think about natural resources today.

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 5th 2018 at 12:11:07 PM

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#248479: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:05:24 PM

AND IT'S ON!

The trade war with China has officially begun.

We're even more dead now, aren't we?

Edited by TheWildWestPyro on Jul 5th 2018 at 9:06:55 AM

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#248480: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:06:34 PM

Also, Wariolander, it is probably best if you keep your mouth shut.

PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#248481: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:09:20 PM

About the environment thing, I thought Right-Wing folks were supposed to be all about money; isn't renewable energy supposed to be a very profitable field nowadays? Then again, I'm thinking of classic, private/deregulated economy-focused Right-Wing, which isn't necessarily socially conservative or reactionary. Guess this is what happens when a European such as myself tries to understand American politics. :V

I still find it interesting that American Libertarians are usually assumed to be ultra-social conservatives, too. Though I suppose a socially-liberal Libertarian would be called an Anarchist instead.

Edited by PresidentStalkeyes on Jul 5th 2018 at 5:43:51 PM

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#248482: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:12:40 PM

The USA rightwing is greatly influenced by Big Oil and King Coal.

And the American Lolbertarian Party are a bunch of Austrian school goldbug Bitcoin mining Koch puppet cultists.

As you might have guessed, I'm not a huge fan of the Libertarians.

Edited by M84 on Jul 6th 2018 at 12:14:43 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#248483: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:20:05 PM

Neither am I, and I used to be one of them. I liked a lot of their ideas but they've been abandoning rationality for too long and the only libertarians left who are Libertarians have drowned their brains in Kool-Aid.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#248484: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:24:34 PM

My own primary issue with Libertarians, gleaned from conversations on this thread, is that their views come off as more than a little naive. My understanding is that they want as little regulation and federal oversight as possible, and that things will work out because the market and economy will naturally drive competition rather than monopoly.

It seems to rely on an altruism that, by and large, simply isn't there.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#248485: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:31:37 PM

Micheal Avenatti says he will run in 2020 only if Trump runs and there is no other candidate with a real chance at beating him.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#248486: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:37:50 PM

@sgamer82: That's a charitable interpretation. They also tend to be so committed to their worldview that they accept outright pseudoscience because they desperately need to have someone tell them that their views are right. It's a fertile ground for affinity fraud (as well as getting tied in with racial bullshit due to the neo-Confederate link - this part is what drove me away), which further poisons the movement and drives the sane people away.

A lot of Libertarians really, honestly believe that, through some magic trick or other, the federal government and particularly the IRS can be made to vanish in a Puff of Logic. This is Not Hyperbole - this is the entire idea behind the "sovereign citizen" movement.

Small-l libertarians tend to want lower taxes and greater individual (negative) freedoms, and aren't as committed to the specific methodology of getting them.

Edited by Ramidel on Jul 5th 2018 at 8:42:54 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#248487: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:44:31 PM

"individual (negative) freedoms"?

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#248488: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:50:29 PM

Negative freedoms mean the right to not be interfered with (as opposed to the right to be assisted with).

For example, libertarians of all stripes are big on drug legalization (there's some arguments on the details). They all want lower taxes if possible, though sometimes (as with a lot of libertarian environmental proposals) they prefer taxes to hard bans. They want less government bureaucracy and interference (UBI used to be a big thing in Libertarian circles before the kool-aid got too thick). They tend to favor isolationism and free trade in foreign policy, along with a draw-down of the defense budget.

Edited by Ramidel on Jul 5th 2018 at 8:51:34 AM

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#248489: Jul 5th 2018 at 9:57:02 PM

From what I've seen, part of the problem with libertarianism is that the dominant philosophy (the non-aggression principle) lends itself more easily to defending the right to discriminate than the right not to be discriminated against

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#248490: Jul 5th 2018 at 10:04:31 PM

I thought Right-Wing folks were supposed to be all about money; isn't renewable energy supposed to be a very profitable field nowadays?

A minor correction: Republicans are all about their money, and their money is tied tight to the oil industry.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#248491: Jul 5th 2018 at 10:06:31 PM

Indeed. The idea is that discrimination can be countered by market forces - those who are discriminated against or who object to discrimination can boycott discriminatory businesses, and the invisible hand will thus pressure against discrimination. In real life, of course, that doesn't work - though I note that part of that is that the actions of the government and police tend to reinforce discrimination, which proper libertarians absolutely oppose.

HugoG Since: Jun, 2018
#248492: Jul 5th 2018 at 10:12:59 PM

Regarding the splitting of the Republican Party.

I think that the Republicans would have to have several bad administrations one after the other before people started turning their back on them completely to the point where a new party could rise up to take their place.

I don't think a single bad administration, even Trump's, could tarnish the GOP reputation in the eyes of their voters.

As long as the democrats can wrestle control from the GOP every few years, their base will continue to defend them as their guys had to "fix the mess left by the dems" or because "the dems didn't let us govern". Not to mention, in 2021 or 2025 some Republicans could justify their vote for the GOP by blaming everything bad on Trump and his minions.

Just a thought I had, though. I could be wrong, hehe.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#248493: Jul 5th 2018 at 10:37:58 PM

We would not survive consecutive GOP administrations.

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#248494: Jul 5th 2018 at 10:41:22 PM

Trump getting reelected would say even more horrible things than him winning in the first place, but if after he's out another Republican were to make it in...

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#248495: Jul 5th 2018 at 11:40:23 PM

If we get some whitebread like Mitt Romney, maybe. If a "moderate" Republican even stands a chance anymore, maybe. It would be bad, but a step in the right direction, and I would take a moderate Republican over Trump again.

I won't be happy if that's what Election Night 2020 works out as, but I might breathe a sigh of relief when the Republican nomination is decided.

Though I guess that depends on the Republicans primarying their own incumbent, which will never happen. Disregard the rest of the post.

Edited by RedSavant on Jul 5th 2018 at 2:40:37 PM

It's been fun.
SlavetoTropes Since: Nov, 2017
#248496: Jul 6th 2018 at 2:32:44 AM

Well, and with effect now, the trade war between China and the US has de facto started. Well, you could say it started a while ago with the steel and aluminium tariffs, but the real bilateral beef is just now beginning.

The US has put into force tariffs on 34 billion of chinese goods and china retaliated for the same amount. 16 further billion are pretty close in the pipeline for the US-program.

What's really worrying is that trump announced that, if China retaliates (which it just did), he will consider tariffs on an additional 200 billion of imports.Also, he winked at the possibility of putting tariffs on all imports from china (which would be another 300 billion after the 50 billion now and 200 billion already considered).

What is especially problematic about the latter prospect, is that China can't retaliate against that by putting tariffs on an equal amount of US-imports (as it doesn't have enough imports to do that), so it probably would have to retaliate in another way, which could lead tot he US doing the same thing, spilling the conflict over from tariffs to non-tariff trade obstacles.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/jul/06/us-china-trade-war-34bn-tariffs-non-farm-business-live

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#248497: Jul 6th 2018 at 6:56:50 AM

Trump had another rally last night. Though we should really start calling it an "adulation fix" instead, since he has one of these damn things every week now.

This one was in Montana, where a GOP'er named Matt Rosendale wants to unseat Democrat senator Jon Tester. More about Rosendale. Goes without saying that I hope Rosendale's defeated.

Edited by speedyboris on Jul 6th 2018 at 8:58:47 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248498: Jul 6th 2018 at 7:00:20 AM

I wonder if that's a part of why the Democratic Party struggles with image. Democratic administrations (at least in my lifetime) have more or less been too busy cleaning up after Republicans and fending off Republican propaganda to market themselves.
This probably has some truth to it but the bigger reason for the Democrats image problem is that they lack their own media mouthpiece and the normal media is at-best disinterested in talking about their policy. Hence their issue with creating an image and why people so often believe Republican propaganda about them.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#248499: Jul 6th 2018 at 7:00:28 AM

1/ Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer urged Trump to nominate federal Judge Merrick Garland to replace Justice Anthony Kennedy in a private phone call last week. Garland was Obama's nominee to the Supreme Court, who was blocked by Senate Republicans in 2016. The conversation lasted less than five minutes.
Honestly I'm surprised it lasted that long. And if Trump had nominated Garland originally, he would have had more positive press from a lot of Democrats in the beginning, though he still would have pissed it all away.
Those that have pestered about why they were discharged have been told either that the Department of Defense hadn't finished the background check yet, or that they were labeled a "security risk" due to having family outside the US.
Depending on where the immigrants are from, the second part might even be legitimate, but damn is that bad optics for the Army.
Why would immigrants want to join the US Military right now anyways
It's a better road to legal citizenship. Plus the benefits that convince many Americans to join up - steady guaranteed paycheck, free medical care, food and housing, etc.
Well, that totally shits on my plan B in case my country goes to shit this year or the next one...
Try a friendlier country, like Australia or the UK? I think they take foreign nationals for their military as a path to citizenship.
could you see disgruntled ex-Republican conservatives form a new party that might effectively replace the Republicans?
Only if Trump's presidency genuinely drives the country into another Great Depression. I realize he's trying hard to achieve this, too, but it would take something like that, and enough charismatic now-non-Republicans to convince Faux News to swing to their side, to break the stranglehold on right-wing voters.
My understanding is that they want as little regulation and federal oversight as possible, and that things will work out because the market and economy will naturally drive competition rather than monopoly.

It seems to rely on an altruism that, by and large, simply isn't there.

Yes. And legal weed everywhere, don't forget that. Libertarians are convinced that everything that they've achieved in life, they did without any kind of outside assistance. At all. It was all them. And all their failures are because someone wouldn't get out of the way and just let them succeed like the Great Men they are.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248500: Jul 6th 2018 at 7:02:46 AM

Yes. And legal weed everywhere, don't forget that. Libertarians are convinced that everything that they've achieved in life, they did without any kind of outside assistance. At all. It was all them. And all their failures are because someone wouldn't get out of the way and just let them succeed like the Great Men they are.
Quite, fundamentally the only freedom libertarians defend is economic freedom and the only people who would truly benefit from that are the plutocrats. Libertarinism is an ideology driven by nothing more than selfishness and greed.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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