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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#248376: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:37:06 PM

No one should be surprised or even remotely shocked. He's a profoundly stupid Fox News viewer. After hearing nonstop about how bad things are in Venezuela, and how bad its leader is, of course he'd think just going in and beating 'em up would be an option. After all, that kind of thing worked out great for Reagan, right?

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#248377: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:40:34 PM

Whether or not Trump is serious, the POTUS cannot legally declare war by themselves, especially not without some form of casus beli.

Leviticus 19:34
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#248378: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:47:38 PM

Why would he even want to invade Venezuela? Wouldn't it be easier to cook up an excuse for Iran?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248379: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:48:30 PM

[up][up]Well yes and that's why IIRC we haven't declared war in quite a while and yet that hasn't stopped us from engaging in armed conflict, we've become quite good at sidestepping that rule.

[up] @Eschaton explained it quite well, Trump isn't the sort of man to think of things like "casus belli" or any similarly strategic concepts. He's a reactive moron who thinks Fox News is the gospel truth.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 4th 2018 at 4:50:48 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#248380: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:58:03 PM

[up]x3 No, the President can't declare war... But they have the power to send troops to any country for any reason for up to 2 months without Congressional approval.

So Trump can technically destroy Venezuela and occupy it for up to 2 months before having to pull all the troops out (and considering this Congress, they either would approve of the invasion or wouldn't force him after the 2 months).

And this is why I'm against the President having any form of Military Authority outside of an officially declared war.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248381: Jul 4th 2018 at 5:00:52 PM

And this is why I'm against the President having any form of Military Authority outside of an officially declared war.
Terrible idea, Congress is a massively inefficient and ossified institution thus giving them control of the military would make our response to crises extremely slow. Especially considering that in the modern day conflict is much more varied and unconventional then it used to be, a central authority like the President is exactly what we need to use the military optimally.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#248382: Jul 4th 2018 at 5:01:51 PM

[up][up]Well you have to keep in mind that there's a specific legal definition of "war" that is technically something different than most conflicts the US has been in since WWII.

For example, The War On Terror. You can't actually be at war with a terrorist group, by definition.

Edited by Protagonist506 on Jul 4th 2018 at 5:01:38 AM

Leviticus 19:34
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#248383: Jul 4th 2018 at 5:45:39 PM

Regarding Trump's seriousness: it's entirely possible he just spouts out whatever random idea he has at any given time. He seems like the sort. Then he gets the feedback, and starts doubling down on whatever gets him positive attention.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248384: Jul 4th 2018 at 5:50:24 PM

[up]Eh, while the "spouts off random idea" bit is completely right the rest is questionable. Trump isn't really doing this solely for self-aggrandizement, there are things he really does care about (i.e the wall) and it would be a mistake to think that he only does it for positive approval.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248385: Jul 4th 2018 at 5:55:51 PM

Since it's Independence Day, here's the opening paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence.

WHEN, in the Course of human Events, it becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the Political Bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's GOD entitle them, a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind requires that they should declare the Causes which impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed, by their CREATOR, with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness.—That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the Governed, that whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its Foundation on such Principles, and organizing its Powers in such Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate, that Governments long established, should not be changed for light and transient Causes; and accordingly all Experience hath shewn, that Mankind are more disposed to suffer, while Evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the Forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long Train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security. Such has been the patient Sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the Necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The History of the present King of Great-Britain is a History of repeated Injuries and Usurpations, all having in direct Object the Establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid World.

The rest of it is mostly just a statement of grievences against the British Government, and can be read here

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 4th 2018 at 9:16:05 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248386: Jul 4th 2018 at 7:45:23 PM

For comparison, a few of the weeks most deranged tweets from our dear leader

The Democrats are making a strong push to abolish ICE, one of the smartest, toughest and most spirited law enforcement groups of men and women that I have ever seen. I have watched ICE liberate towns from the grasp of MS-13 & clean out the toughest of situations. They are great!

To the great and brave men and women of ICE, do not worry or lose your spirit. You are doing a fantastic job of keeping us safe by eradicating the worst criminal elements. So brave! The radical left Dems want you out. Next it will be all police. Zero chance, It will never happen!

Just out that the Obama Administration granted citizenship, during the terrible Iran Deal negotiation, to 2,500 Iranians - including to government officials. How big (and bad) is that?

The economy is doing perhaps better than ever before, and that’s prior to fixing some of the worst and most unfair Trade Deals ever made by any country. In any event, they are coming along very well. Most countries agree that they must be changed, but nobody ever asked!

Wow! The NSA has deleted 685 million phone calls and text messages. Privacy violations? They blame technical irregularities. Such a disgrace. The Witch Hunt continues!

And my favorite:

After having written many best selling books, and somewhat priding myself on my ability to write, it should be noted that the Fake News constantly likes to pore over my tweets looking for a mistake. I capitalize certain words only for emphasis, not b/c they should be capitalized!

Oh, and Sean Spicer is writing a book.

A friend of mine and a man who has truly seen politics and life as few others ever will, Sean Spicer, has written a great new book, “The Briefing: Politics, the Press and the President.” It is a story told with both heart and knowledge. Really good, go get it!

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 4th 2018 at 10:48:39 AM

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#248387: Jul 4th 2018 at 7:57:15 PM

Democratic challenger for Texas Attorney General Justin Nelson put out an ad a few days ago showing Republicans ghosting current Tx AG Ken Paxton in a fake group chat over Paxton's falling approval numbers.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248388: Jul 4th 2018 at 8:11:14 PM

So apparently a protester climbed the Statue of Liberty and was sitting on the feet, and refused to come down, causing the island to be evacuated. (From NY Times)

The authorities cleared visitors from the Statue of Liberty on the Fourth of July after a woman protesting the Trump administration’s immigration policies climbed onto its base and refused to come down. About three hours later, police officers followed the woman onto the statue and took her safely into custody.

The standoff created an unexpected spectacle in New York Harbor that culminated not long before the planned Independence Day fireworks were set to start nearby on the Hudson River. Television networks aired live coverage through the afternoon, showing a continuous video feed of the protester as she moved around the base of the statue.

The woman started climbing shortly after 3 p.m. on what officials described as one of the busiest days of the year for the national monument. National Park Service officials said that more than 20,000 tourists typically visit the monument each July 4.

Throughout the afternoon, the woman, identified by federal officials as Therese Okoumou, waved what looked like a T-shirt and reclined in a crease of the statue’s robe. The copper is only about one-tenth of an inch thick, and officials feared she could damage the statue.

While I'm a supporter of peaceful protests, this was stupid and dangerous. It put herself and others at risk, ruined hundreds of visitors trips, and even more importantly, could have damaged the Statue. (I have messed up priorities, I know)

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 4th 2018 at 11:30:43 AM

Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#248389: Jul 4th 2018 at 8:38:01 PM

[up] I can understand criticizing the danger and questioning the usefulness of this, but worrying that a few people may have had their vacations ruined comes off as Skewed Priorities considering why she did it.

Edited by Kakuzan on Jul 4th 2018 at 11:38:17 AM

Don't catch you slippin' now.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248390: Jul 4th 2018 at 9:01:45 PM

[up] There's no doubt her heart was in the right place, but I would be saying these things no matter who was protesting or why.

Other than the recklessness of climbing up the Statue of Liberty, I'm most concerned about how it could have affected the Statue itself. The copper finish is only 1/10th of an inch think, and is very old, and could have easily been chipped off.

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 4th 2018 at 12:05:41 PM

Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#248391: Jul 4th 2018 at 9:02:21 PM

And more protests like it are going to occur.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248392: Jul 4th 2018 at 9:11:26 PM

[up] God, that hurts to think about.

I'm in Philadelphia this week, for Independence Day, and we went to a Ranger Talk about the Declaration through Independence National Historic Park. One of the pictures in the slide show they had for it was someone sitting in the "Rising Sun" chair where George Washington say during the consitutional convention, taken in the 1920s, and was actually kind of stressful to think about. (I'm a nerd with skewed priorities, I know.)

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 4th 2018 at 12:23:02 PM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#248393: Jul 4th 2018 at 9:26:03 PM

The military is definitely justified in ignoring a simple order to attack Venezuela without authorization. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if Trump managed to order a cruise missile strike on Venezuela at random. The military is entirely too free with their cruise missiles. (Though in Trump's defense, the Syrian action was justified, if executed execrably due to Trump's mixed objectives.)

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#248394: Jul 4th 2018 at 9:54:55 PM

[up] That’s not really in the realm of possibility either. The president doesn’t have direct access to things like that, and getting a strike to happen requires going through many layers of military planning and advisement, as well as the civilian bureaucracy in the White House.

If we go to war under Trump it’ll be against someone that makes sense, like Iran or North Korea. Worry about that, not about fantasy scenarios where he attacks random countries.

Also, we don’t really use cruise missiles all that often. It’s a newsworthy event when it does happen.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jul 4th 2018 at 10:43:14 AM

They should have sent a poet.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#248395: Jul 5th 2018 at 6:20:03 AM

While I'm a supporter of peaceful protests, this was stupid and dangerous. It put herself and others at risk, ruined hundreds of visitors trips, and even more importantly, could have damaged the Statue. (I have messed up priorities, I know)
I'm not convinced that it was particularly dangerous to anyone (herself included) or the Statue, and the rest is classic civil disobedience. Good on her, I say.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248396: Jul 5th 2018 at 6:28:06 AM

While I'm a supporter of peaceful protests, this was stupid and dangerous. It put herself and others at risk, ruined hundreds of visitors trips, and even more importantly, could have damaged the Statue. (I have messed up priorities, I know)

Yes she got in the way, but that's the entire point of direct action. Pretty much any form of protest or passive resistance is going to annoy someone and thus I think "it ruined people's trips" isn't really a very strong argument against it. Obviously optics matter but since this wasn't dangerous or even unreasonably disruptive I don't think anything's wrong with it.

(and I'll have to echo Native Jovian in that I don't think this was particularly dangerous to anyone)

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 5th 2018 at 6:29:00 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#248397: Jul 5th 2018 at 6:37:06 AM

Protests often do cause massive inconvenience for people. That's not a reason to discourage them.

Heck, I supported the immigration ban protests at various airports even though my own trip back to the USA was rather inconvenienced as a result. You ever have to sneak out back of an airport with a lot of luggage to avoid a crowd of protesters? Kind of a hassle.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248398: Jul 5th 2018 at 6:43:03 AM
Thumped: for switching the discussion from the topic to a person. Doesn't take many of this kind of thump to bring a suspension. Stay on the topic, not the people in the discussion.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#248399: Jul 5th 2018 at 6:58:50 AM

I can only imagine the thought process of Trump wanting to invade Venezuela. If I had to guess, he probably thought that by invading the country and overthrowing the government, the people will declare him a great man for getting rid of their oppressors. Basically more adulation fuel.

Nevermind that: A) Invasions are expensive, B) Rarely results in people welcoming the "liberators" (see Iraq), and C) Much harder to execute than Trump seems to think.

Oh, and I'm sure Trump knows what would be required after an overthrow. What, do we station thousands of troops down in Venezuela for the next 15 years to make sure they don't descend into chaos?

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#248400: Jul 5th 2018 at 7:00:10 AM

Unless the protests are holding up something like emergency service (which in this case they obviously weren't) or turn violent, more power to them.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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