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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#248351: Jul 4th 2018 at 10:15:37 AM

[up] That’s basically how it works, with the caveat that it’s easier to disobey an order the higher up you go. One of the Joint Chiefs telling the president he won’t invade Venezuela is a little different than an infantryman refusing an order from his CO.

They should have sent a poet.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#248352: Jul 4th 2018 at 10:24:19 AM

Numbers are also a factor. Whole lot easier to court martial/sanction/dismiss an individual or a small group than it is to deal with entire units refusing orders.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#248353: Jul 4th 2018 at 10:38:59 AM

So trump is considering invading my country.....

ufffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

I said this and I wills said it again. you guys have a right wing maduro for president, or your typical latin american populist.

Get used to it, as we surely have.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Wariolander Since: Nov, 2017
#248354: Jul 4th 2018 at 10:39:38 AM

[up]x13 Doesn't that technically count as an invasion of Canada?

Edited by Wariolander on Jul 4th 2018 at 10:39:27 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248355: Jul 4th 2018 at 10:40:58 AM

[up]No it doesn't.

Probably a violation of their sovereignty but that's not really comparable to a military invasion.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#248356: Jul 4th 2018 at 11:14:48 AM

Now that time when a gust of wind accidentally blew a bunch of boaters/rafters across one of the Great Lakes...tongue

Had they actually tried to (or succeeded in) detain someone, it would have been a bigger incident.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Jul 4th 2018 at 3:15:06 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248357: Jul 4th 2018 at 11:27:03 AM

Now that time when a gust of wind accidentally blew a bunch of boaters/rafters across one of the Great Lakes...tongue

Absolutely unforgivable.

Had they actually tried to (or succeeded in) detain someone, it would have been a bigger incident.
Yeah I imagine it would've, still thankfully nothing will probably come of it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 4th 2018 at 11:28:54 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#248358: Jul 4th 2018 at 11:31:48 AM

Abducting foreign nationals/ships in foreign waters, almost sounds like piracy.

And since it isn't unheard of for Temporary Foreign Workers from Central/South America to work in the fishing industry (in addition to Canadian residents/citizens from said regions).....it is not out of the question for a situation like to escalate if it keeps reoccurring.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Jul 4th 2018 at 3:35:20 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#248359: Jul 4th 2018 at 1:51:55 PM

It's not the military obeying or disobeying orders to invade Venezuela I'm worried about. It's if, after the 2018 elections, if things go bad for the Republicans, they scream "Voter fraud!" and try to suspend the results. It not Trump attacking other countries that scares me, it his attacking American states and cities that won't kowtow to him.

Trump delenda est
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248360: Jul 4th 2018 at 2:40:50 PM

[up] I wouldn't worry to much about it. He'll forget the minute another hair-brained scheme pops into his head.

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 4th 2018 at 5:42:24 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#248361: Jul 4th 2018 at 2:45:05 PM

I thought that the US has no (legal) provisions to suspend elections, their results or Congress itself? Even in a state of emergency.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#248362: Jul 4th 2018 at 2:47:43 PM

They've been crying widespread election fraud for years now. Outside of working as smokescreen for their voter suppression efforts, nothings come of it right.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#248363: Jul 4th 2018 at 2:51:58 PM

I thought this was a good article to honor Independence Day with

Plastic patriotism only appeals to the lowest common denominator of American. It’s the kind of rah-rah posturing that the-less educated, less-intelligent, less-motivated, and wholly immature of our population seek when they’re unable to find any satisfaction in their personal lives.

Its structure, its nature, is designed to give the satisfaction of success to people who lack success on an individual basis. With plastic patriotism, they can feel accomplished based on historical and group successes — “We won gold at the Olympics”; “We won WWII”; and “We beat the British.”

It’s the kind of patriotism that masks for unhealthy levels of nationalism. Those who engage in it are smitten by the rules of liberty, a set of rules they made up that quantifies just how American someone is based on their social behavior and political thoughts. When those rules are broken or tested, we often see the plastic-patriot hordes engage in facile verbal offensives to correct the perceived indiscretions.

When it comes to shaming others into their idea of patriotism, the most valuable tool the plastics have is “the troops.” No controversial or talked-about issue is immune from the plastics injecting “the troops” in order to score cheap points.

We saw this during the NFL’s flag kneeling controversy of 2017. It started as a few players constitutionally and quietly protesting police brutality during the national anthem. But the plastics hijacked the narrative, pitting the “ungrateful thug football players” against all the troops who ever died in an American uniform. No metaphor or cliche was sparred by the plastics in their campaign to derail peaceful protest while fetishizing the anthem and the troops.

That’s one of the easy examples. It’s become such a common occurrence to cite the troops in every political argument that it’s essentially a joke to everyone but the plastics, who lack the self-awareness to see irony or hypocrisy.

But here’s the dirty open secret about plastic patriots: Their love and admiration for service members more often than not stops the second a troop or veteran tests their worldview. It’s never been about them actually loving the kind of individual that puts on a uniform: It’s about how that individual’s super-hero brand can validate their groupthink.

We’ve seen time and time again how Medal of Honor and Navy Cross recipients, former PO Ws, Purple Heart recipients, Gold Star families, and thousands of combat veterans have had their service or experience relegated because they broke step with the plastics’ narratives.

That’s why we often see the plastics using deceased service members as talking points. The dead can’t burst their bubbles by disagreeing. The dead are perfect tools for dismissing athletes who try to peacefully stand up against racial injustice.

It’s selfishness and insincerity in its most egregious form. If you’re a veteran, no matter what end of the political spectrum you fall on, you are not immune from these people speaking for you, telling you how you’re supposed to act, and tossing you to the side once you’re of no use to them anymore.

It’s not a matter of whether certain views of theirs align with yours or not. This is a matter of them having no respect for your service to begin with. You’ll always just be a talking point to them.

Edited by megaeliz on Jul 4th 2018 at 5:59:27 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248364: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:13:06 PM

It's not the military obeying or disobeying orders to invade Venezuela I'm worried about. It's if, after the 2018 elections, if things go bad for the Republicans, they scream "Voter fraud!" and try to suspend the results. It not Trump attacking other countries that scares me, it his attacking American states and cities that won't kowtow to him.
They don't have that power, either dejure or defacto. They certainly will cry "voter fraud" but it's just that, crying and nothing more substantive.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#248365: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:31:36 PM

Well, we aren't invading Venzuela, but because the other leaders at the conference talked him down.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2018/07/report-trump-had-to-be-convinced-not-to-invade-venezuela.html

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#248366: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:32:33 PM

Wait, why was invading Venezuela apparently on the table?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#248367: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:36:55 PM

More importantly, was it ever something to actually take seriously?

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#248368: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:37:44 PM

Trump wanted to do it and he's got the legal authority to do it, that's reason enough to be concerned.

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#248369: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:42:53 PM

Trump doesn't understand cause and effect and this doesn’t understand that wars are bad and have consequences.

As for the order disobeying discussion. It’s not a breach of civilian control for the military to disobey an illegal order, that’s required by civilian law passed by Congress, it’s simply a deferral to a higher civilian authority. Same way if a squad commander gives you one order and a general tells you to ignore it, you ignore the original order.

The only need to worry is if the Republicans try and remove the law requiring the military to disobey illegal orders.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#248370: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:46:13 PM

What a hilaroiusly awful inversion of the falkland islands.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#248371: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:53:56 PM

Yes, the scary thing of this was that it was actually a serious offer from Trump/desire.

Not being alarmist at all.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248372: Jul 4th 2018 at 3:59:59 PM

How exactly do we know that it was serious? Because that sounds exactly like one of the random "ideas" from Trump that come to nothing, I'm not saying it's not dangerous but I'm not so certain that he was serious.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#248373: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:01:52 PM

The thing about Trump is people keep saying he's not serious about the Wall, detaining children in camps, and trade wars.

And he's so far been serious about them all.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#248374: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:03:08 PM

Have people been saying he's not serious about those things, because at this point I don't see how anyone could think he's not.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#248375: Jul 4th 2018 at 4:25:29 PM

[up][up]Those people are wrong, and yet we hear all the time about random insane ideas in the White House that come to nothing. Should we act as if it's not a threat? Of course not, but that's not the same thing as Trump being serious about it (the things you gave are perfect examples of Trump being serious about something in that he actually does it and consistently focuses on it).

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jul 4th 2018 at 4:25:41 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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