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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#247851: Jun 29th 2018 at 9:56:55 AM

I spent about a minute and a half in New Atheism before bailing out of it. The death of Christopher Hitchens, who I'd always loathed for making the rest of us look bad, wound up being the key point: beforehand, Harris and Dawkins had usually let him say the Islamaphobic stuff while they kept their hands clean. After he was gone, they went all in on the Islamaphobia in what seems to have been their idea of paying tribute to him and his "great ideas" and I decided I wanted out.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#247852: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:00:08 AM

Same. In fact, I get those kinds of recs. after watching just a few goth rock songs/albums. Seriously, what the fuck...

[up][up][up] I feel like New Atheism only made it harder to be accepted as an atheist, because of how loud/obnoxious they are, while being unable to actually present an argument.

Edited by SciFiSlasher on Jun 29th 2018 at 12:01:43 PM

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#247853: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:13:58 AM

The only New Atheist that comes off, and always came off as being a decent fellow is Daniel Dennett. I haven't read any racist, Islamophobic, or neoconservative nonsense coming from him and e's the only philosopher of the four. His written output is the most formal and ponderous, and the least objectionable. Your average neckbeard isn't going to be quoting much of his written work when The God Delusion is more accessible.

I stopped identifying with New Atheists around 2011 partly because I got turned off by how slimy the average New Atheist was as a person — generally a smug, misogynistic shut-in, basically a proto-incel. My roommate in my junior year of college was one of these people, and we increasingly started to loathe each other over it. Plus, I had a hard late 2012, early 2013 in terms of my personal life and I couldn't take the constant, unwholesome negativity all the time.

Politically, though, I've always been strongly pro-multiculturalism, so the UKIP and Trump fandom within the community turned me off completely. And even though I was a Hindu-turned-atheist, I started to identify more with the Muslim American immigrants because we're all mostly brown people.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Jun 29th 2018 at 1:14:40 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#247854: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:16:10 AM

I think part of why New Atheism never really clicked with me was because I reached atheism privately and not due to any real disdain for any organized religion. It was mostly due to a moment of realization that I didn't really believe in any god.

It wasn't a pleasant moment.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#247855: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:22:36 AM

You know, I had almost the exact opposite experience.

I thought I was an atheist because I didn't believe any religion until one day I just sorta realized "huh, I do believe in some kind of higher power, though."

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#247856: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:27:57 AM

I have a very negative view of religion so I felt at home at first. However, my negative sentiments come largely from my loathing of sexism that is entrenched in organized religion. So by the time it became clear the misogynists in the movement were the rule rather than the exception, I was out.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#247857: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:29:41 AM

New Atheistism's biggest problem is that for all its boastings of being enlightened, it sure is blind. It only goes after Islam, and Christianity to a lesser degree, while ignoring the horrible shit extremists Buddhsists, Hindus, and Jews due Muslims in Asia because it doesn't happen here. Like if they went after all religion equally, they would still have that idiotic edgelord view doing so. But at least they would consistent. To say nothing on how the New Atheist is very sexist with no excuse of old traditionsto fall back on lol.

Also, do they even fight the rights of Atheists in the first place?

Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#247858: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:36:47 AM

Reactionaries tend to invade/co opt movements and causes that they can then pervert. It is a common tactic to lure otherwise benign or non malicious people to horrid behavior.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#247859: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:58:00 AM

I don't understand why people can't leave other people to believe in whatever deity they want. Sure, be critical of the power structures of organized religion and out cultish behaviour. Speak out against misogyny and homophobia and racism. Those are all serious issues that need to be addressed. But if you're going to scream at someone that their god is fake when their beliefs don't affect you you're an asshole.

Oissu!
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#247860: Jun 29th 2018 at 10:59:49 AM

Speaking only for myself, I've never been religious. I didn't grow up in a religious household, so it wasn't in my life growing up. When I was 18 I learned I was born out of wedlock and that everyone concerned, including my biological parents, considered that a good thing.

Given how every religion... well... ever feels about that sort of thing, it turned my away from it. I've never felt I could practice faith in good faith.

Nowadays, when I think of religion, I don't consider myself Atheist so much as Apatheist. The distinction (and I concede to may seem a Distinction Without a Difference to some) is that I don't actively deny the existence of God. I simply don't care whether or not He's there in the first place. I'm an atheist only in so much as I don't believe in Him enough to deny His existence to begin with.

Plus, even I watch the Religious Right and their I'll, I'm left feeling that if they are what God wants in his Heaven, I'll take Hell gladly.

[down] *shrug* Probably. I prefer "Apatheist", though. Better conveys my feeling on the matter. Plus, looking it up, agnostic is defined as "a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God."

That first part isn't me because I consider the matter irrelevant altogether.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 29th 2018 at 12:06:07 PM

PhiSat Planeswalker from Everywhere and Nowhere Since: Jan, 2011
Planeswalker
#247861: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:00:43 AM

[up]So you're agnostic?

Oissu!
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#247862: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:06:59 AM

I was born out of wedlock myself. I think my family (at least the family I grew up with) would identify as Christian, though aside from one of my sisters going to church with our father, we have never really been big into going to church. I myself identify as a deist.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
PresidentStalkeyes Eats moldy bread and flies into windows from United Kingdom of England-land Since: Feb, 2016 Relationship Status: Do you like me? (Yes ⎕ Definitely ⎕ Absolutely!!! ⎕)
Eats moldy bread and flies into windows
#247863: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:08:34 AM

I always figured 'agnostic' is more loosely-defined these days and tends to cover what you described pretty well, but that's just my opinion.

On the topic of these New Atheists, the way they've been described makes it sound like they were only atheists in the first place out of a smug desire to be seen as 'intellectual' or 'edgy' as opposed to actually objecting to the problems with organized religions. Would that be an accurate assumption to make?

Edited by PresidentStalkeyes on Jun 29th 2018 at 7:12:14 PM

Those sell-by-dates won't stop me because I can't read!
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#247864: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:38:48 AM

There's this idea, I think, that dishonest people have to be smart enough to know they're lying. They don't always. Witness the people who share made up statistics about how many white people are killed by African-Americans, knowing full well that the statistics they sharing are made up, but believing wholeheartedly that black people do kill tonnes of white people every year and that the reason they can't find "honest" statistics is because the government is covering it up.

In general, there's this weird idea that being stupid absolves a person of wrongdoing. It's, like, the Peter Griffin Rule or something.

"He's not racist, he's just stupid."

"He's not a rapist. He's just stupid."

"He's not a dictator-worshipped madman bent on reversing civil rights and establishing a militarized theocracy; he's just stupid."

Being stupid has become a blank check for bad behavior. It's kind of obnoxious how far we've come in applying the idea that they just don't know any better to grown-ass adults who are considered legally capable of f*cking knowing better.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jun 29th 2018 at 12:40:17 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#247865: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:40:32 AM

I don't understand why people can't leave other people to believe in whatever deity they want. Sure, be critical of the power structures of organized religion and out cultish behaviour. Speak out against misogyny and homophobia and racism. Those are all serious issues that need to be addressed. But if you're going to scream at someone that their god is fake when their beliefs don't affect you you're an asshole.

There are a few factors, some of which are strikingly similar to why religious people proselytize to others.

  • 1 - Because you don't want people wasting their time/energy praising a non-entity (Religious equivalent - because you don't want people to be eternally Damned)
  • 2 - Because of the heinous crap that gets done in the name of faith - remove the faith from the equation, and the belief is that it simply won't happen. Naturally, this kind of disregards that some people are just assholes and will use X to justify their being an asshole.
  • 3 - I can't actually think of a third one right now, but I felt like I had to comply with the Rule of Three.

And for a quick breakdown, here are the four groups.

Gnostic Theist - "I know that God exists!"

Agnostic Theist - "I don't know for sure, but I think God exists."

Agnostic Atheist - "I don't know for sure, but I don't think there is a God."

Gnostic Atheist - "I know that God does not exist!"

Naturally, the most motivated are going to be the polar opposites on the spectrum.

Edited by ironballs16 on Jun 29th 2018 at 11:42:24 AM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#247866: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:43:14 AM

3. I know everything better and others ought to agree with me.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#247867: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:44:22 AM

Not helping your case Trumpy.

Russia continues to say they had nothing to do with Meddling in our Election! Where is the DNC Server, and why didn’t Shady James Comey and the now disgraced FBI agents take and closely examine it? Why isn’t Hillary/Russia being looked at? So many questions, so much corruption!

More of his crazy.

Lover FBI Agent Peter Strzok was given poor marks on yesterday’s closed door testimony and, according to most reports, refused to answer many questions. There was no Collusion and the Witch Hunt, headed by 13 Angry Democrats and others who are totally conflicted, is Rigged!

When is Bob Mueller going to list his Conflicts of Interest? Why has it taken so long? Will they be listed at the top of his $22,000,000 Report...And what about the 13 Angry Democrats, will they list their conflicts with Crooked H? How many people will be sent to jail and..........persecuted on old and/or totally unrelated charges (there was no collusion and there was no obstruction of the no collusion)...And what is going on in the FBI & DOJ with Crooked Hillary, the DNC and all of the lies? A disgraceful situation!

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#247868: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:45:39 AM

Back to politics, as some of this discussion fits more in the Religion thread...

Now Trump wants out of the WTO. SMH.

Raptorslash Since: Oct, 2010
#247869: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:51:22 AM

Would we be able to rejoin these orgs once Trump is gone?

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#247870: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:51:26 AM

Could we get a summary for those of us who don't want to turn off adblocker?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#247871: Jun 29th 2018 at 11:55:39 AM

3. I know everything better and others ought to agree with me.

My god this speaks to me at a deep and personal level tongue

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#247872: Jun 29th 2018 at 12:06:56 PM

[up][up][up] Some maybe, some not, but even if so, the issue is ceded soft power. No matter what we do from now on with them will carry the not-so-subtle clause of "... at least, until the next guy comes along."

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#247873: Jun 29th 2018 at 12:20:00 PM

When is Bob Mueller going to list his Conflicts of Interest?

Why don't you, Mr. President? Go on. List them. I'll be waiting.

Because right now, this sounds an awful lot like demanding that Mueller investigate himself, which is stupid on so many levels.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#247874: Jun 29th 2018 at 12:39:39 PM

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2018/06/29/day-526/

Day 526: Totally screwed.

1/ Trump has been privately telling top White House officials that he wants the US to withdraw from the World Trade Organization. "He's (threatened to withdraw) 100 times," a person who's discussed the subject with Trump. "It would totally (screw) us as a country." Trump's economic advisers have pushed back when he raises the idea of withdrawing from the organization that regulates international trade. (Axios / CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/trump-world-trade-organization/index.html

2/ The Trump administration ran a family separation "pilot program" months before the announcement of the "zero tolerance" policy. At least 1,768 children were separated from their parents between October 2016 and February 2018, in addition to the 2,342 children who were separated since May 5 — bringing the total number of separated kids to more than 4,100. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/immigration-border-crisis/trump-admin-ran-pilot-program-separating-migrant-families-2017-n887616

3/ The Department of Justice is drafting a plan to overhaul the U.S. asylum policy, which would prevent people from getting asylum if they entered the country illegally. It would also make it extremely difficult for Central Americans to qualify for asylum, and would codify an opinion written by Jeff Sessions that restricts asylum for victims of domestic abuse and gang violence. (Vox)

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/6/29/17514590/asylum-illegal-central-american-immigration-trump

The UN migration agency voted down Trump's candidate to lead the International Organization for Migration, which is responsible for coordinating assistance to migrants worldwide. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/29/politics/ken-isaacs-migration-united-nations/index.html

Pence told the leaders of three Central American countries that "this exodus must end" and to respect U.S. borders. "Our nation needs your nations to do more," Pence added. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/pence-tells-central-american-leaders-end-exodus-respect-u-s-n887661

4/ Justice Anthony Kennedy's son, Justin, worked at Deutsche Bank for more than a decade, helping loan Trump more than $1 billion at a time when other banks wouldn't. Since 1998, Deutsche has helped loan Trump at least $2.5 billion with at least $130 million still owed to the bank. In 2017, Deutsche Bank AG agreed to pay a $425 million to New York's banking regulator over a money laundering scheme that helped Russian investors move $10 billion out of Russia. Trump later waived the fines for the bank after Robert Mueller issued a subpoena to Deutsche for the banking records of people affiliated with him. Following Trump's first address to Congress in February 2017, he stopped to tell Justice Kennedy: "Say hello to your boy. Special guy." (New York Times)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/06/28/us/politics/trump-anthony-kennedy-retirement.html

poll/ 67% of Americans do not want the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade. 53% of Republicans want to see Roe v. Wade overturned, while 81% of Democrats and 73% of independents would not. (Kaiser Family Foundation / Vox)

https://www.kff.org/health-reform/press-release/poll-two-thirds-of-americans-dont-want-the-supreme-court-to-overturn-roe-v-wade/

The Iowa Supreme Court ruled that a law requiring a 72-hour waiting period for women seeking an abortion was an unconstitutional burden. "Autonomy and dominion over one's body go to the very heart of what it means to be free," the justices wrote. "At stake in this case is the right to shape, for oneself, without unwarranted governmental intrusion, one’s own identity, destiny, and place in the world. Nothing could be more fundamental to the notion of liberty." (Associated Press)

https://apnews.com/882e886e3a504e34b6586aa5b882f77f

Notables.

Rep. Maxine Waters cancelled multiple events after receive what she described as a "very serious death threat" against her. Waters was scheduled to speak Friday at the conference of the National Organization of Black Elected Legislative Women in Birmingham and another event in Texas. Last week Waters encouraged protesters to harass Trump officials in public. (Washington Post / CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/politics/maxine-waters-threatened/index.html

George Papadopoulos will be sentenced by a federal judge in Washington, D.C., on Sept. 7. Papadopoulos pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI and has agreed to cooperate with Robert Mueller's investigation. (NBC News)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/ex-trump-aide-papadopoulos-will-be-sentenced-sept-7-n887586

Trump wants to make a deal with Putin on Syria that would allow the US to "get out ASAP." Trump's plan would let the Russians help Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad take back a region where the US-led coalition is experiencing increased opposition from "an unidentified hostile force" despite a previous ceasefire. (CNN)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/28/politics/trump-king-of-jordan-syria-putin/index.html

Trump's chief economic adviser lied on Fox Business that the federal budget deficit was "coming down rapidly," contradicting all available data. The deficit from January through April was $161 billion, up from $135 billion at the same point last year. The deficit in fiscal year 2017 was $665 billion. In fiscal year 2016, the deficit was $587 billion. The nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office projects that the deficit will climb to $1 trillion annually by 2020. There is no publicly available data to justify Larry Kudlow's claim. (Washington Post)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2018/06/29/trumps-top-economic-adviser-says-deficit-is-coming-down-rapidly-contradicting-all-available-data/?utm_term=.1654a47088ae


Not sure what to make of this so I'll submit it for the board's approval:

Howard Stern's 'Stuttering John' prank calls Trump on Air Force One—and gets through!

https://m.dailykos.com/stories/2018/6/29/1776659/-Howard-Stern-s-Stuttering-John-prank-calls-Trump-on-Air-Force-One-and-gets-through

To directly quote the forum post I saw this on:

A podcaster gets through to Air Force One and calls Donald Trump...pretending to be NJ Senator Bob Menendez. It's a bizarre thing that should be listened to. Some notes:

-Trump gives away that he'll confirm a Supreme Court pick within two weeks.

-He congratulations Menendez for...something, and states his treatment was unfair. I think he's talking about Menenzed beating the fraud charges against him.

-John asks about child separation. Trump states "he wants a big solution, not a small one."

-Stuttering John has apparently called Trump many times before now. Trump still didn't recognize him. John ended the call "baba booey."

Edited by sgamer82 on Jun 29th 2018 at 1:51:38 PM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#247875: Jun 29th 2018 at 12:47:18 PM

He's just going to fucking give Syria to the Russians.

Oh really when?

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