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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#247576: Jun 27th 2018 at 7:43:46 PM

Getting people out to vote is the key. That's all there is to it. Seriously, people are acting like this wasn't a possibility from the start. Another SCJ stepping down has always been in the cards. I'm legitimately shocked people weren't ready for it.

Regaining control of Congress is the first priority. And for the moment, has to take precedence over just about everything else.

As for how to convince people to vote, the Supreme Court actually trying to repeal something like Roe v Wade might actually be enough to do it for some. For those where it isn't enough, well, I guess we finally get to see for sure how much of the anti-Clinton hysteria was straight up misogyny.

There is no easy answer I'm sorry to say. There never has been.

Edited by AmbarSonofDeshar on Jun 27th 2018 at 7:46:55 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#247577: Jun 27th 2018 at 7:51:05 PM

The search for an easy answer, a quick fix, a messiah...that's part of why we've got Trump in the first place.

Disgusted, but not surprised
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#247578: Jun 27th 2018 at 7:51:15 PM

Ambar Sonof Deshar: And many a democracy has fallen because they believe that a would be autocrat can be defeated by playing within the rules that the autocrat flaunts and enforces in a rules for thee, but not for me manner. That's what the opposition in the Weimar republic thought when Hitler took power.

And it's not like in this country we don't have a history of men that are trying to preserve our norms destroying them. Johnson didn't reveal Nixon's sabotage of the Paris peace talks because he didn't want to damage the norms of the country. Nixon's presidency both in the southern strategy that created the party of big business racism and in the Watergate scandal that damaged trust in the government enough to let Reagan tear down Johnson's great society did more damage to the countries norms than the reveal could have ever done. The Trump presidency itself is the result of Obama wanting to preserve norms and as such he did not reveal the ongoing investigation into Trump's ties with the Russian government, which was then compounded by Comey's boneheaded October surprise in an attempt to not look partisan.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#247579: Jun 27th 2018 at 7:58:22 PM

That's what the opposition in the Weimar republic thought when Hitler took power.

No, the opposition in Weimar supported Hitler's government as a bulwark against Communism. If you're going to invoke Godwin's Law, at least do us all a favour and get the history right.

This scream for revolution or disenfranchising voters you don't like is, ultimately, incredibly immature. It stems from the same mindset that declared the DNC must have rigged the primaries for Sanders to have lost. It's an attempt at blaming systemic failure or corruption in order to evade any personal responsibility.

Is the system currently rigged against the Democrats? Yes. But the reason the Republicans have been able to do that is because their people voted, while the left stayed home waiting for a Unicorn. Because for whatever reason, liberals are always, in perpetuity, looking for evidence that they don't have to vote. Now you're just doing it again, pushing a call for an authoritarian left in order to evade the responsibility of having to go out, in the trenches, every time there's an election and work at making the world a better place.

There is never going to be a time when you don't have to vote. I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's the way it is. And what you're suggesting is immoral and, perhaps more importantly, won't work. When you enshrine authoritarianism, sooner or later you get an authoritarian leader. And voter suppression is textbook definition authoritarianism.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#247580: Jun 27th 2018 at 7:59:59 PM

The search for an easy answer, a quick fix, a messiah...that's part of why we've got Trump in the first place.

The sad reality is, a lot of people need a reason to go vote. Upsetting though it may be, if they don't hear a good reason as to why they should vote when something like this happens, then they're just not gonna do it. It's a serious problem on the left, yes, but it's something that also has no easy answer/quick fix.

Also, what about this? Democrats have a risky long shot at blocking Trump's next Supreme Court pick.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#247581: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:04:12 PM

[up] There is a reason to vote; nothing will ever get better if you don’t.

You have a choice between doing something and maybe it works, or doing nothing and it definitely doesn’t work. I’ll chose the maybe any day.

They should have sent a poet.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#247582: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:04:30 PM

Guys, let's be honest here, the SC has been under Republican control for something close to 40 years and it's only because one justice, Kennedy or Roberts, had a pang of conscience every now and then that we got the upholding of the ACA and the legalization of gay marriage. That anyone can look at the decisions of the past week and declare Kennedy a moderate is beyond me. Our victories from before were, first and foremost, lucky breaks. Not every piece of legislation will be brought to trial before SCOTUS because the string of appeals necessary to get to SCOTUS may not be successful.

What this means is that we're going to have to stop relying on jurisprudence to move the nation forward. We're going to actually have to vote in elections, and never sabotage fellow Democrats when "Hannibal is at the gates" and the GOP has a slate of Trumpist stooges ready to win.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Jun 27th 2018 at 11:04:26 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#247583: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:05:06 PM

Civil society is like a romantic relationship. You don't go looking for a soulmate, for a perfect match, and then assume everything will just fall into place afterwards. You take the best from what you have that's available, acknowledge that it's probably going to be imperfect, and work on it to make sure the two of you are happy.

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#247584: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:07:37 PM

There is a reason to vote; nothing will ever get better if you don’t.

You have a choice between doing something and maybe it works, or doing nothing and it definitely doesn’t work. I’ll chose the maybe any day.

I am not talking about myself.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#247585: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:11:27 PM

Liberal democracy is not something we decide is optional. We don't transition to illiberal democracy just to stop the other side from doing it first.

BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#247586: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:17:47 PM

That's where you're wrong, I'm looking for a reason to hope. Because the path we are on is one where we will fall into a right wing dictatorship by degrees as each time the democrats have power they will find themselves using all their time just trying to undo the damage the right has done. Where we can make no impact because our legislation is undone every time it comes up, and time and time again the right is rewarded for breaking the norms that are supposedly so important. Where as we stand for democracy, authoritarianism is enshrined.

[up]That's funny to me, because the other side has already done it.

Edited by BigMadDraco on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:20:21 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#247587: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:18:41 PM

A left-wing dictatorship, which you are proposing, would only be marginally better than a right-wing one, if even that.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#247588: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:19:30 PM

It sucks being the adult in the room when people treat you like monsters.

Ironically, I'm trying to do it because of my faith I feel that has been perverted being based around that.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#247589: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:21:10 PM

It would be no more a dictatorship than what we have now. And if what we have now is a dictatorship, we shouldn't be giving a damn about the old norms because a republic does not come back from being a dictatorship, it is destroyed and a entirely new republic must be created in it's place.

Edited by BigMadDraco on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:23:02 AM

SilentColossus (Don’t ask)
#247590: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:22:00 PM

[up][up][up][up]

Then you fix it. You get rid of gerrymandering, and you vote in every election to make sure they never get the power to take those rights away from you again.

Edited by SilentColossus on Jun 27th 2018 at 11:21:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#247591: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:24:20 PM

[up][up] “We already have a dictatorship so let’s put someone I like in charge of it”

First off, we’re far from a dictatorship. Second, that’s a frankly awful line of reasoning.

Oh and finally, transitioning from a dictatorship to a democracy is totally possible. In fact, it’s been done lots of times.

Edited by archonspeaks on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:25:26 AM

They should have sent a poet.
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#247592: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:27:29 PM

Okay, if what we have now is not a dictatorship, then why not use our next victory to replace the republican thumb on the scale with a democratic one? I know it's not impossible, it's just not the same democracy that became the dictatorship. The French Republic of today is not the French Republic overthrown by Napoleon.

Edited by BigMadDraco on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:28:51 AM

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#247593: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:27:52 PM

Yeah, if things were already at dictatorship level, Trump wouldn't have spent the last 18 months being mostly ineffectual.

Really it's a testament to just how strong the American social norms are. There's absolutely no reason to do take over the job Trump's been incompetently trying to get done.

[up]Because that's morally bankrupt, hypocritical, and, more importantly, unneeded. All the democrats need to consistently win for the foreseeable future is a level planning field.

Edited by Gilphon on Jun 27th 2018 at 11:29:08 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#247594: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:30:34 PM

[up][up] Are you proposing we form a left-wing dictatorship as a preemptive measure against the possibility of a right-wing dictatorship?

Because if so, that’s really not great.

They should have sent a poet.
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#247595: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:32:10 PM

Which we will never have because the Republican party is willing to let the country go down the tubes to make a democratic president look bad. I mean that was their very successful plan when Obama won. Stifle the economic recovery, then use the bad economy to rally against Obama.

[up]I'm proposing that we respond to the Republicans tit for tat. We do to their voters what they are already doing to ours.

Edited by BigMadDraco on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:34:37 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#247596: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:35:46 PM

Obama won, both times, if you don't remember.

And what they're doing to Democratic voters is wrong, period, not just because it's being done to Democratic voters. Reversing what they do, and then outvoting them will suffice Easier said than done, I know, but what you're talking about is even less realistic, even ignoring moral and ethical implications.

Edited by LSBK on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:35:48 AM

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#247597: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:40:24 PM

You just moved the goalposts at lightning speed. So, what, then, are you saying the Democrats should intentionally crash the economy next time they get control of congress? Because that's literally what 'tit for tat' would mean in the context of that post.

Like, surely you see why that would be an awful idea.

See the current problem is that half of the American political has rotted. The solution to that problem is not 'make sure the other half is just as rotten', it's 'get rid of the rot on the bad half'- which is to say, make it clear to the Republicans that doing stuff like this will make them have to fight like hell for every seat they have, so that they have no choice but to clean up their act if they want to keep their jobs.

Imca (Veteran)
#247598: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:41:06 PM

Trump is seventy.

6 more years is pushing it anyway.

If you make it to 20, you have 90% odds of seeing 60, 80% odds of making it to 80... it is at that point that the big drop happens.

Life expectancy ages skew down even in developed nations due to infant mortality, so..... yea even with his unhealthy life we shouldn't expect him to kick the bucket.

Maybe some folks are so in despair that they're afraid that if they vote, they'll lose and their opponents will put them on a list of 'subversive persons'? I mean, it's worked that way in other countries, no reason to think it wouldn't happen in the 'states (of course I'm not suggesting that's what would happen).

It was attempted last year and states with red governors happily handed the voting rolls over.

Trumps "voter fraud commision" though I can understand forgeting with how this administation just keeps diging.

Edited by Imca on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:45:55 AM

BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#247599: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:42:45 PM

They also saw the single biggest swing in the house in 50 years, and took a near record number of state legislatures and governorships. If you can do what you're suggesting and take a large number state legislatures, and governorships despite the voter suppression from the GOP, it's trivial to take it a step further and turn the tables. Also we should end the war on drugs.

[up][up]One, a tit for tat response would be to not help with economic recovery because as much as they are awful, the republicans did not intentionally crash the economy. Two, what's your plan for getting rid of the rot on the bad half when to maintain the beloved norms no punishment can be doled out to those causing the rot.

Edited by BigMadDraco on Jun 27th 2018 at 8:46:32 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#247600: Jun 27th 2018 at 8:46:44 PM

Just wondering, what purpose would that even serve? It certainly wouldn’t help any Democratic political agenda, it would probably hurt party chances in most elections, and it wouldn’t be great for the overall health of the country either.

What you’re proposing is vengeance. Which is not only immoral but pointless as well.

They should have sent a poet.

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