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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#246901: Jun 24th 2018 at 7:52:35 AM

“Urban areas” didn’t just mean cities, it includes towns in rural states.

What I’d love to know is what percentage of people in each state live in an urban area, as so far I can only find that data for the US as a whole.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#246902: Jun 24th 2018 at 8:19:19 AM

[up]x4

I'm playing devil's advocate to some extent: as I said my preference is the requirement for a candidate to get 51% of the popular vote then use the EC as a tie breaker if necessary.

We already have a system in place to break ties/pick a victor if no one gets it: the House of Representatives picks. This has only happened twice; for the 1824 Elections (known as the 'Corrupt Bargain', as the Speaker of the House, William Clay, became John Q. Adams Sec. of State) and for the 1876 Election (where Southern Representatives agreed to elect Rutherford B. Hayes as President in exchange for Soldiers to be removed from the South).

[up]x2 Again, if voting were Mandatory for Federal Elections, then Cities wouldn't have the outright advantage in most States (especially since many cities have populations that would side with Rural and LTS Suburban voters).

singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#246903: Jun 24th 2018 at 9:44:42 AM

When I say tie breaker, I mean the EC comes into play if no candidate gets 51%. In other words, my system would not change the result of the 2016 election even though Clinton won the popular vote.

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#246905: Jun 24th 2018 at 9:51:18 AM

I feel like that takes the problems inherent to the FPPT system and makes them worse. Adding an extra post does not solve the issue.

edited 24th Jun '18 9:51:40 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#246906: Jun 24th 2018 at 10:21:48 AM

I think people have this idea that since the EC has been there since the start there must be some inherent value to it, and that this is why we should not get rid of it. That...really isn't the case. The EC is antidemocratic and always has been.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#246907: Jun 24th 2018 at 10:23:56 AM

I find the Brazilian system reasonable: if no candidate reaches 51% in the election, they have a second round only with the two candidates with the highest amount of votes (all others being eliminated) and whoever gets the most votes wins. No electoral college, only votes.

Of course voting is also mandatory in Brazil.

edited 24th Jun '18 10:24:56 AM by Gaon

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#246908: Jun 24th 2018 at 10:30:17 AM

Having a straight popular vote doesn't mean rural areas are going to get ignored or left to rot. In the current system, Democrats have more reason to ignore rural red states because they're traditionally seen as conservative and unlikely to budge, so why devote resources to them? On the flipside, Republicans may campaign there, but when they get elected they won't help them at all because their platform is shit.

We know it's not necessarily true that democrats can't win in traditionally red states anymore, but imagine how much more they could benefit if they didn't have to turn the state blue in order to get something out of it.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246909: Jun 24th 2018 at 10:40:29 AM

So according to Cheeto, undocumented immigrants (or; "those people") should be summarily deported, without a hearing or a judge.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/24/politics/ron-johnson-immigration-cnntv/index.html

Methinks that's probably not Constitutional, but since when has that stopped the GOP from trying inane and cruel BS?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#246910: Jun 24th 2018 at 10:43:09 AM

Pretty sure Trump's concentration camps already violate the "cruel and unusual punishment" clause.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#246911: Jun 24th 2018 at 10:46:55 AM

We all know the GOP would be doing far worse if they had the chance.

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#246912: Jun 24th 2018 at 11:01:00 AM

An anonymous detained immigrant in a Houston facility told the Texas Tribune the HHS said immigrants could get their children back, as long as they signed an voluntary deportation order now.

Can we say hostage situation? note 

HOUSTON — Central American men separated from their children and held in a detention facility outside Houston are being told they can reunite with their kids at the airport if they agree to sign a voluntary deportation order now, according to one migrant at the facility and two immigration attorneys who have spoken to detainees there.

A Honduran man who spoke to The Texas Tribune Saturday estimated that 20 to 25 men who have been separated from their children are being housed at the IAH Polk County Secure Adult Detention Center, a privately-operated U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement facility for men located 75 miles outside Houston. He said the majority of those detainees had received the same offer of reunification in exchange for voluntary deportation.

The 24-year-old detainee, who spoke on the condition of anonymity and requested the Tribune use the pseudonym Carlos because he feared retaliation, told the Tribune that he abandoned his asylum case and agreed to sign voluntary deportation paperwork Friday out of “desperation” to see his 6-year-old daughter, who was separated from him after the pair illegally crossed the border in late May. The man said two federal officials suggested he’d be reunited with his daughter at the airport if he agreed to sign the order, which could lead to him being repatriated to his violence-torn home country in less than two weeks.

“I was told I would not be deported without my daughter,” said Carlos, adding that he's now hoping to revoke the voluntary deportation order he signed and get legal help to fight his case. “I signed it out of desperation… but the truth is I can’t go back to Honduras; I need help.”

Carlos said he’s only spoken to his daughter once — on June 21 — since the pair were separated three weeks ago in Mc Allen. He said he paid a smuggler $7,000 for the 10-day journey from Honduras because he feared being caught up in the violence waged by organized crime syndicates and gangs in the country. They turned themselves in to Border Patrol officers shortly after illegally crossing into the United States on a raft that pushed off from the banks of the Rio Grande on the Mexico side near Reynosa, Carlos said.

He said he wanted a better life for his only daughter and hoped U.S. officials would grant them asylum. He was told he did not pass the first hurdle — proving he had "credible fear" of persecution or torture in Honduras — but volunteer attorneys have instructed him to revoke the paperwork he signed and appeal his credible fear ruling before an immigration judge.

Anne Chandler, Houston director of the Tahirih Justice Center, a national organization that advocates for immigrant women and girls, said she’s heard an almost identical account from another Central American migrant detained at the Livingston facility, a taupe-and-blue building surrounded by two chain link fences lined with coils of razor wire.

Carl Rusnok, an ICE spokesman, said Saturday evening that the agency "cannot research vague allegations," but would do so if given specific details about the migrants who made the claims.

"It is unprofessional and unfair for a media outlet to publish such allegations without providing names, dates and locations so that these allegations can be properly researched," Rusnok said. The Tribune declined to give Rusnok the detainees’ identifying information.

A Homeland Security and Health and Human Services fact sheet released Saturday said parents ordered removed from the U.S. can "request that his or her minor child accompany them," but that "many parents have elected to be removed without their children."

More than 2,500 migrant children have been separated from their parents since early May, after the federal government cracked down on border-crossers and began pressuring federal prosecutors on the southwest border to pursue charges against anyone alleged to have entered or tried to enter the country without authorization.

Homeland Security said Saturday that 522 unaccompanied minors have been reunified with family members since the zero tolerance policy began, and that they have a reunification plan for those who remain in federal custody.

But both Chandler and Cynthia Milian, a private attorney working with Tahirih, questioned whether the offers that the immigrants have reported receiving could be honored by the government, given the sprawling and slow-moving nature of the nation's immigration bureaucracy.

While migrant adults are prosecuted by the Justice Department and then detained by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, their children are placed in shelters funded and overseen by the Department of Health and Human Services. Chandler said it could take between one to two months to secure the release of an unaccompanied migrant child.

Many immigrant parents have been placed in removal proceedings and some have already been deported without their children.

Milian, who has spoken to Carlos, said his situation is a “parent’s worst nightmare” and that it was highly unlikely he would be met at the airport by his daughter. “I doubt they would put his child on a plane to get her to where he would get deported out from, especially if she’s in Arizona,” where Carlos was told she is being held. “I just don’t see that happening.”

Carlos said he worries about the conditions in the facility where his daughter is being held, whether she’s receiving proper care for her asthma, and how she will find her way to an aunt in Los Angeles if he is deported back to Honduras without her.

When they spoke on Thursday, Carlos said his daughter was “very sad … and wanted me to get her out of there.”

Carlos is one of the thousands of migrants impacted by the zero tolerance directive announced by Attorney General Jeff Sessions in April, which requires federal prosecutors along the U.S.-Mexico border to prosecute nearly all allegations of unauthorized border crossings. The policy inundated already-backlogged federal courts; several courtrooms, including one in Mc Allen where Carlos was charged in May, have held mass hearings where dozens of migrants plead guilty to illegal entry charges at once — a scene critics have likened to assembly-line justice.

After the new crackdown sparked bipartisan outrage, President Donald Trump signed a hastily-written executive order Wednesday that keeps most families together through the pendency of their cases. But there are divisions within the Trump administration about whether it’s possible to continue pursuing every case of illegal entry.

Despite assurances that there are reunification plans in place, confusion and chaos reign on the ground about how families separated at the height of the zero tolerance policy will be put back together.

An MSNBC correspondent tweeted Sunday morning that a Homeland Security official said "separated parents were quickly given the option to sign paperwork leading to deportation. Many chose to do so."

Bob Etnyre, a Houston-based attorney and immigration law expert, said Carlos’ case highlights a "particularly diabolical aspect" of the family separations — dangling reunification as an incentive to drop an asylum claim.

Carlos said his daughter was taken away from him on the day he went to the Mc Allen courthouse to plead guilty to illegal entry. He said officials at the detention facility he knew as “la hielera,” or the “ice box,” told him she would be taken to an aunt in California — “pure lies,” he said.

“She’s a prisoner,” he told the Tribune through a plexiglass partition in the facility’s visitation room. “She can't talk, she cries because she's locked up.”

“The kids aren't to blame for what's going on,” he added. “We only came because we can't live in our country. We are looking for somewhere to live where our children can have a better future. In our country we can't do it.”

Carlos' mother, reached by phone in Honduras, said she hasn't been able to speak to her son or granddaughter since they were detained. She's been told her granddaughter was ill with an upper respiratory ailment. "We've been worrying and suffering over this," she said.

The aunt of 6-year-old Alison Jimena Valencia Madrid, another Central American girl separated from her parent and currently being held in an Arizona facility, said she can imagine the distress both Carlos and his daughter are feeling.

Madrid garnered national attention when she was heard on audio, surreptitiously recorded in a Customs and Border Protection facility and provided to Pro Publica, persistently asking authorities to call her aunt – whose phone number she’d memorized. “Are you going to call my aunt so that when I’m done eating she can pick me up?” Madrid can be heard saying, as other Central American children weep and sob “Mami” and “Papá” in the background.

“It’s inhumane for them to be separated,” said the aunt, who lives in Houston and spoke to the Tribune on the condition of anonymity. “And that’s a pain she will always have. That little creature will grow up with that forever. It’s a psychological and emotional wound for both of them, because people don’t come here to lose their children.”

edited 24th Jun '18 11:01:21 AM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#246913: Jun 24th 2018 at 11:32:59 AM

My honest view regarding the EC is pretty much a sentimental one. I just feel that as long as the US is constituted as a Union of States, the States should have some say in how the president is elected. Obviously things have moved on and the federal government is now large enough in people's lives that direct elections to the federal level make more sense - and as such a national system such as a purely popular vote would be a good idea.

I'm happy to drop this subject for now - I kind of hoped it could be a thought experiment into if you had to have an EC based system how would you constitute it to avoid the drawbacks of the current system.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#246914: Jun 24th 2018 at 12:16:35 PM

There are better ways to show that the US is a union of states, do what the EU does and have the executive consist of people sent by each member state, empower the senate more, have a presidency that rotates between individuals elected to represent regions of the US, ect...

But not the EC, if nothing else the EC has a tainted history, because, as I pointed out before, it was designed to give slave owners to ability to vote in presidential elections on behalf of thouse they enslaved.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#246915: Jun 24th 2018 at 12:53:41 PM

Our country was built by slave hands on a foundation of genocide.

That is an important historical context to keep in mind when it comes to our Constitution and political traditions.

edited 24th Jun '18 12:54:02 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#246916: Jun 24th 2018 at 1:50:55 PM

@silasw: All things considered, moving toward the EU is not something the US should be doing right now. We want more federal power, not less.

(Yes, even if that means more federal power in Trump's hands. It's easier to change the federal government than the government of a red state.)

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#246917: Jun 24th 2018 at 2:36:43 PM

America's closest allies are furious about Trump's tariffs, and now an unorthodox idea to go after him is gaining steam

Specifically, Gillmore suggested the use of Canada's Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act, also known as the Magnitsky Act. The law was designed to punish foreign officials engaged in corruption by allowing the Canadian government to crack down on their businesses.

Gilmore's suggestion picked up enough steam to gain the attention of Canada's lawmakers. Canadian Foreign Minster Chrystia Freeland — the country's chief trade negotiator — was asked about the use of the Magnitsky Act by Erin Weir, a member of the Canadian parliament, during a question-and-answer session.

"We are now in a consultation period, we welcome ideas from all Canadians on what should and what should not be in our retaliation list," Freeland said.

Trade law experts warn the move could carry danger for any country that attempts to go after the Trump Organization.

Jesse Goldman, an international trade lawyer at the Canadian law firm Borden Ladner Gervais, told Business Insider that although using corruption laws to go after Trump's businesses is "within the realm of possibility," it would require a government to prove that the Trump Organization is linked to business actively engaged in corruption.

"That would be an absolute bombshell, it would rely on someone effectively blowing the whistle on some of those past business dealings," Goldman said.

Gillmore argued that the current investigations by US law enforcement provides enough justification, but Goldman was not as convinced.

"It would definitely be salacious. It would change the dialogue very quickly," Goldman said. "I would expect Canadian officials are looking at issues like that with the attitude that they'll let domestic processes in the US unfold before even considering options like that."

Lee Branstetter, a Carnegie Mellon University professor who served on President Barack Obama's Council of Economic Advisers from 2011 through 2012, agreed with Goldman. He told Business Insider that the only way a country could go about such sanctions against the Trump Organization would be if they could prove the sort of shady dealing that would provide a legal basis to take such action.

The other issue: Such a move would inevitably lead to irreparable damage on the US-Canada relationship. Sanctioning Trump directly would likely scuttle any negotiations to remove the current tariffs and could provoke substantial retaliation from the US president.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#246918: Jun 24th 2018 at 2:51:24 PM

Trump is somehow become even more fragmented in his tweets.

Steel is coming back fast! U.S. Steel is adding great capacity also. So are others.

.@Fox News Poll numbers plummet on the Democrat inspired and paid for Russian Witch Hunt. With all of the bias, lying and hate by the investigators, people want the investigators investigated. Much more will come out. A total scam and excuse for the Dems losing the Election!

The Russian Witch Hunt is Rigged!

Drudge Report “OBAMA KEPT THEM IN CAGES, WRAPPED THEM IN FOIL” We do a much better job while at the same time maintaining a MUCH stronger Border! Mainstream Fake Media hates this story.

.@VP Pence is heading to Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania where we have both strongly endorsed one of the finest men around, Congressman Keith @Rothfus For PA. He is running against #Lamb The Sham, who is telling......everyone how much he likes me, but he will only vote with Nancy Pelosi. Keith is strong on borders and tough on crime — and loves cutting taxes! #MAGA

It’s very sad that Nancy Pelosi and her sidekick, Cryin’ Chuck Schumer, want to protect illegal immigrants far more than the citizens of our country. The United States cannot stand for this. We wants safety and security at our borders!

Democrats, fix the laws. Don’t RESIST. We are doing a far better job than Bush and Obama, but we need strength and security at the Border! Cannot accept all of the people trying to break into our Country. Strong Borders, No Crime!

The United States is insisting that all countries that have placed artificial Trade Barriers and Tariffs on goods going into their country, remove those Barriers & Tariffs or be met with more than Reciprocity by the U.S.A. Trade must be fair and no longer a one way street!

edited 24th Jun '18 2:54:39 PM by megaeliz

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246919: Jun 24th 2018 at 2:54:15 PM

I doubt the Canadian government will sanction the Trump Organization; unless the trade war escalates and/or the NAFTA talks implode entirely.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#246920: Jun 24th 2018 at 2:57:07 PM

[up]. I've said this before, but there is only two ways to manage Narcissists.

The question in managing narcissists is ALWAYS "do you want to be happy or right?"

If the answer is "happy", the first of those two is better. Give him enough air-cover to retreat with a cloud of false bravado

If the answer is "right", the second is better. Steamroll over him and wipe out his policy... which essentially neuters him not only on this issue but in a larger way.

That would have consequences though. Trump would erupt and their would be collateral damage.

Sanctioning the Trump organization would be the latter. So the question is, how much is getting back at him worth?

edited 24th Jun '18 2:59:47 PM by megaeliz

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#246921: Jun 24th 2018 at 2:59:53 PM

Our country was built by slave hands on a foundation of genocide. That is an important historical context to keep in mind when it comes to our Constitution and political traditions.

Hear, hear.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246922: Jun 24th 2018 at 3:06:35 PM

[up][up]See, its basically political suicide, outside of maybe South Korea and Japan (maybe), for a democratic leader to appease Trump. So they have to counter him, but because they still value the standard diplomatic order, they can only react to him unless they have evidence that justifies preemptive action.

And that article did mention that criminal activity has to be detected and announced before personal sanctions can go into force. Accusing the Head of State of an ally of criminal activity is not something to be done lightly.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#246923: Jun 24th 2018 at 3:11:25 PM

Yes, even if they had the evidence, it would be the option of last resort.

@megaeliz: his tweets for today seem almost normal by comparison — he's still ranting about tariffs and Democrats, however.

edited 24th Jun '18 3:13:05 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#246924: Jun 24th 2018 at 3:26:04 PM

“OBAMA KEPT THEM IN CAGES, WRAPPED THEM IN FOIL”

For the love of...

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#246925: Jun 24th 2018 at 4:53:36 PM

Who thinks the 2020 election will have actually good main candidates? Because Donald Trump might just be the most easy to mock president in US history. Yes, even more than James Buchanan and Warren Harding

edited 24th Jun '18 4:55:21 PM by RJ-19-CLOVIS-93


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