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Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#246776: Jun 23rd 2018 at 1:27:19 PM

@Aceof Spades: Define "outdated". When was the electoral college a good idea, in your opinion? What's changed between now and then?

And yes, despite the EC a lot of small states are ignored, but that isn't necessarily a problem with the Electoral College per se.

Leviticus 19:34
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#246777: Jun 23rd 2018 at 1:29:51 PM

Yeah, when was the last time a Democratic presidential candidate seriously campaigned in Montana?

The Electoral College makes it easier for Republicans to isolate their base and pander exclusively to their prejudices, because they don't need to win the popular vote to win elections. Abolish it and maybe the GOP would have to stop preaching to racist farmers and actually go to the cities and figure out what people there need.

Then, possibly, the tail could stop wagging the dog and those racist farmers wouldn't have three times the votes that I get in presidential elections.

edited 23rd Jun '18 1:53:02 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lorsty Since: Feb, 2010
#246778: Jun 23rd 2018 at 1:54:59 PM

Honest question, does your president actually look after the interests of the battleground/smaller states or do they just ignore them in favour of the big money states after the election is decided?

I read an argument in favour of the electoral college saying it's designed so the smaller states aren't ignored. But what's stopping a candidate from paying lip service to a small state with 3 EC votes and then ignoring it after they've won the election?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246779: Jun 23rd 2018 at 1:59:20 PM

I didn't think the Electoral College needed that much of a defense but I come from Kentucky and tend to assume that people think people in rural states are human beings.

Right now Kentucky is a state with an actual hunger crisis, 5000 deaths by opiods every year, and in dire need of federal funding to help the poor. Without the Electoral College, it's very unlikely any politician would give a shit whether the people in the state live or die....not that they barely do now.

Without special attention for less populated rural states, you get the Hunger Games.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#246780: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:03:34 PM

[up] I'll give you a hint: not a single Republican in Congress or the White House cares about Kentucky, because it's a guaranteed red state that they barely have to bother campaigning in despite their economic and social policies continually screwing it over. The Electoral College does fuck all to help with that. Maybe if we made it easier for Democrats to win national elections, we'd see politicians who actually care about improving the lives of the general public.

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:04:44 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#246781: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:04:40 PM

Actually, with 6 congressional districts Kentucky isn't so bad off (on average each state would have 8.7) and one of your current Senators is majority leader.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#246782: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:06:00 PM

[up]x4 I would say that something, or a series of somethings, changed between 1888, when Harrison was elected and 2000 when Bush Jr. won. If I were to venture a guess I would say a massive shift of the population from the rural to the urban and then to the suburban.

[up] [up][up] So, and this is a serious question, not hectoring, has there been any serious change since Trump was elected?

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:18:33 PM by tricksterson

Trump delenda est
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246783: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:08:27 PM

Yes, the situation in Kentucky is that it has plenty of Federal Representation.

It's just our Federal Representation is Always Chaotic Evil.

Mitch Mc Connell is human trash worse than Trump and people are dying because of it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#246784: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:10:33 PM

The electoral college enshrines complacency when it comes to "guaranteed" blue and red states. It's too much to hope for a non-FPTP system, but if non-purple states were actively competitive under raw popular vote then politicians might be more inclined to make state-based proposals for all of the nation.

It's been some time but I believe the Democrats discussed a return to the old Fifty States Initiative in which they would attempt to campaign even in states that were not considered "blue" on the off chance that they might flip, or at least sow the seeds of a future flip.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246785: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:13:26 PM

The inconvenient truth is that five states went for Trump which went for Obama.

Notably ones Hillary didn't campaign in.

The election was lost by a hair not a mile. Its interesting to debate how things would have been different if Ohio and Michigan had more Hillary exposure.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#246786: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:26:25 PM

And what would happen if the GOP wasn't engaging in voter suppression.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#246787: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:26:35 PM

Or how it might have been won if the popular vote actually mattered more than some archaic idea that lines drawn on a map give some people more representation than others.

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:32:59 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246788: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:28:45 PM

Or how it might have been won if the popular vote actually mattered more than some archaic ideas that lines drawn on a map give some people more representation than others.

Shockingly, people actually like to have their situations cared about in their country.

We've moved past "Rome" being the only point anyone cares about in the Empire.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#246789: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:33:12 PM

[up] How's that going for you, I wonder? It sure seems to be working out great with the status quo.

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:33:26 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#246790: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:33:28 PM

And the electoral college does nothing but make the people who aren't cared about the most populated areas.

Oh really when?
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#246791: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:33:30 PM

And the EC results in large parts of the country being ignored because they're seen as safe races that don't need enticing.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246792: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:37:37 PM

And the electoral college does nothing but make the people who aren't cared about the most populated areas.

Except for the fact you do get votes and lots of them.

And the EC results in large parts of the country being ignored because they're seen as safe races that don't need enticing.

Kind of bad politics on both parts. There's a reason Obama was a 50 state campaigner and it worked.

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:38:27 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#246793: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:38:19 PM

So? Those votes are for people who fuck over their voters as predictably as the sun rises. Sure, there are Democratic voters in Kentucky. You think the EC helps them, somehow?

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:38:52 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#246794: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:44:30 PM
Thumped: This post was thumped by moderation to preserve the dignity of the author.
Oh God! Natural light!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#246795: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:45:40 PM

Again, I ask: compared to what? I defy you to demonstrate that the status quo helps out rural voters in any measurable way.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246796: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:48:01 PM

Again, I ask: compared to what? I defy you to demonstrate that the status quo helps out rural voters in any measurable way.

Alright, there was this guy named Franklin Roosevelt. He was one of the original 50 state campaigners and he found out that Appalachia was a shithole. I don't mean kind of a shithole, I mean that people were living like the 17th century and it had roughly the same kind of life expectancy as people living under warlords.

So, in order to get their votes, he created the Tennessee Valley Authority among many other reforms designed to give these people a chance to live better.

And it changed society completely there.

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:48:17 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#246797: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:48:26 PM

The electoral college doesn't help less populated areas either is the thing.

It just plain sucks.

Oh really when?
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#246798: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:48:28 PM

Let's look at it this way - if we switched to a system where the popular vote determined the victor, could a candidate win simply by gaining the majority in most, if not all, of the major cities?

And since the top 100 largest cities in the USA are not even close to half the population...

"Yup. That tasted purple."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246799: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:49:48 PM

The electoral college doesn't help less populated areas either is the thing.

It just plain sucks.

Except for all the times it has, I agree.

More or less any time the federal government has helped the poor, it's because of appealing to rural voters.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#246800: Jun 23rd 2018 at 2:50:27 PM

Again, I ask: compared to what? I defy you to demonstrate that the status quo helps out rural voters in any measurable way.

In terms of letting them have a voice in federal politics, I do think it's the superior system. That doesn't make it a good one, especially if it results in a President that the majority of the population, regardless of where they live, did not want, but if the scenario I described is indeed the case, then that system wouldn't give them a voice at all.

[up][up] Fair enough - that's why I asked the question to begin with.

edited 23rd Jun '18 2:52:55 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!

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