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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#246301: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:39:59 AM

Mind you, I actually think Crassus military adventure in Persia was far outside of his wheelhouse and was a gross mistake on his part. Whenever one invades a territory, one should be well aware of one's enemies strength and the Parthians were quite a bit stronger than anyone believed at the time (but if they'd bothered to check would have noted). The fact Rome repeated it doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb idea for the sixty year old man to do.

"The Parthians were quite a bit stronger than anyone believed at the time." That's the key part of your statement, and it's why trying to accuse Crassus of being uniquely incompetent is wrong. Nobody in Rome had a clear picture of Parthian power. Switch out Crassus for Pompey or Caesar and you'll see the exact same set of mistakes being made, because the information that the Roman Republic had to work with was flawed.

The decision made by Rome to ignore what had happened to Crassus and write him off as uniquely incompetent, is the whole reason why the Romans continue to repeat the mistake for decades to come. Rather than accepting that one of their better generals had been bested by these people, and that, for the first time since Carthage, they were dealing with a peer competitor, they declared him an idiot, and continued to act on bad information. Hence the disaster of Antony's Parthian campaign, and the many that came after it.

There is no figure in the Roman Republic to whom Trump can easily be compared, because any famous figure of the Roman Republican era will have had some competency in order to get where they are. Trying to compare him to Caesar or Crassus or anyone else, even a Mark Antony or Clodius Pulcher, is doing a disservice to those historical figures, and misunderstanding Trump. Trump is a product of an American political system that prizes both white supremacy and the "I'd have a beer with him" anti-intellectual attitude. If he's got any analogues they will come from similar systems.

DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#246302: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:40:31 AM

[up]x6

Not particularly surprised there, I wouldn't expect the type of people who sign up to be border guards to be huge on accurate record-keeping.

How many illegal immigrants does America as a whole have, anyway?

[down]

Also that, although if you want to assess any possible effect on wages or unemployment/vacancy ratio or tax base or whatever I guess it's not a major deal how they got into the country in the first place. We know most of them don't bother with an illegal border crossing in the first place.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:50:03 AM by DeathorCake

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#246303: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:43:29 AM

[up] And how many of those are actual border crossers as opposed to overseas people who let their visas expire? That is the real question.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:44:18 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#246304: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:43:47 AM

the USA does the same to every American general who is defeated by the Native Americans, declaring that the white general must have been an idiot, because there is no way the Natives could have produced a capable military leader.
Hang on, are you telling us that Custer wasn't an idiot? Although I feel like this is starting to get off topic; do we even have a US History thread?
some enterprising person dug up an old Political Cartoon by Dr. Seuss, in which a woman wearing a shirt emblazoned "America First" reads "Adolf the Wolf" to children
I've seen that on Facebook since 2016.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#246305: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:44:28 AM

[up]x5 He met with Republicans just before the he made the announcement. What's the chances that they fed the idea to him?

edited 20th Jun '18 9:45:32 AM by megaeliz

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#246306: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:50:21 AM

Regarding war with Mexico, that’s something that’s going to join war with Canada in the “fantasy” pile.

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#246307: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:57:18 AM

Also that, although if you want to assess any possible effect on wages or unemployment/vacancy ratio or tax base

Not that the loudest voices screeching about this in the USA actually give a flying fuck about this. They just don't want more brown people in the USA.

Hence why there hasn't been nearly as much whining about the Canadian border. At least not prior to this trade war bullshit.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#246308: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:01:03 AM

Hang on, are you telling us that Custer wasn't an idiot? Although I feel like this is starting to get off topic; do we even have a US History thread?

Yes. Custer was not an idiot. He wasn't a genius, but he was a perfectly competent general, with a solid Civil War record. He was also, by the standards of the day, a moderate on "the Indian Question" being neither an exterminationist nor a radical humanitarian.

The need to vilify Custer or portray him as a raging imbecile has never had anything to do with reality, and everything to do with the inability of American historians to come to terms with America's relationship to its Native populace.

edited 20th Jun '18 10:03:11 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246309: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:02:58 AM

War with Mexico is something you could actually justify and be something that people have argued would be a good thing. Specifically, given the murder of 200 politicians by the cartels since November, there's a good argument a better President (say 3rd term Obama) could offer US military assistance against the Cartels.

I have no doubt that would be an EPIC clusterfuck but a smarter politician than Trump would make the offer and get boots on the ground there w/ Mexico's permission.

Mind you, a BETTER IDEA would be legalizing marijuana to help gut the cartel's businesses.

Yes. Custer was not an idiot. He wasn't a genius, but he was a perfectly competent general, with a solid Civil War record.

The need to vilify Custer or portray him as a raging imbecile has never had anything to do with reality, and everything to do with the inability of American historians to come to terms with America's relationship to its Native populace.

I think the attempt to repair Custer's military record is an exercise in wasted resources. Even if you argue he's not an idiot, then you fall into the fact he was outright evil since his strategy at Little Bighorn was to attempt to capture the noncombatants there and use them as hostages. There's also innumerable mistakes which even armchair military types can justifiably say they would have made like accepting reinforcements and using the gatling guns in their possession.

No, he was a trained military officer but he was an arrogant and foolhardy one who made an outstanding series of catastrophic blunders which a more cautious commander would not have. Which if it isn't an idiot then I don't know what is.

edited 20th Jun '18 10:08:13 AM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#246310: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:05:12 AM

Legalization would only gut the cartel's business if done precisely right. Otherwise you've just handed these guys a legitimate business. Now, obviously, if one is pushing any policy, one should be hoping and expecting it to be done precisely right, but in the current political climate I don't see that happening.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#246311: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:07:35 AM

War with Mexico is something you could actually justify and be something that people have argued would be a good thing. Specifically, given the murder of 200 politicians by the cartels since November, there's a good argument a better President (say 3rd term Obama) could offer US military assistance against the Cartels.
Except military assistance against the cartels is explicitly not a war with Mexico, thus that would not be a justification for making war on the Mexican government.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#246312: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:08:25 AM

The cartels already gain a significant amount of revenue from things like mining ore. They know what's coming, and they've long since diversified.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246313: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:09:34 AM

It is a war IN Mexico, though.

I doubt El Cheeto would see the difference.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#246314: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:12:04 AM

[up]And? You said that it could be a possible justification, when it's not. Just because Trump is a moron does not mean it justifies anything.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#246315: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:12:36 AM

Please don't ruin Cheetos for me. They're my favorite chip-derivative bagged snack food.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#246316: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:15:25 AM

Cheetos are the shit, I for one am certainly not going to let Trump ruin them for me.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#246317: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:19:00 AM

Apparently Trump has signed an executive order ending the separation of families at the border. What the alternative is gonna be, I haven't read yet, but it probably won't be much better.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#246318: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:20:58 AM

Breaking News: President Trump plans an executive order to stop separating families at the border by detaining them together. It may face a legal challenge.

Thank freakin' goodness! Not just that this putrid law is being stopped, but that Trump doing this means he knows he's out and out lost. It also gives him one less tool to use to try to get his putrid Wall.

It's still terrible, though, that thousands of children have been separated, and that many of them will never be able to be reunited.

eyebones Since: Apr, 2004
#246319: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:21:06 AM

Check. Trump comparisons to Cheetos demeans Cheetos. Etiquette tip received.

For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. — H.L. Mencken
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246320: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:22:52 AM

Guys, I'd hold off on celebrating this apparent EO. Let's wait till it actually gets signed and put into force. Cause right now Trump is talking about how millions of illegals will "overrun" America if he's weak and chooses heart over strength.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246321: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:25:03 AM

I'll believe he signed it when he signs it.

RAICES might be able to help with the actual existing victims, though. They have the money for it now.

https://slate.com/business/2018/06/raices-can-be-effective-with-all-that-money-its-raising-on-facebook.html

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#246322: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:26:09 AM

Re: Trump-as-Crassus conversation.

Alright, it was a bad comparison. In the interest of maintaining the intellectual standards of our discussion, I'll admit that this line of thinking was misinformed and that I was wrong to make the comparison.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#246323: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:28:09 AM

@eyebones. I think we established that most any comparison will inevitably demean the thing being compared to Trump

edited 20th Jun '18 10:28:16 AM by MorningStar1337

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#246324: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:31:10 AM

Charles Phipps: We already assist Mexico with the cartels. A full-on invasion of Mexico is pure fantasy.

edited 20th Jun '18 10:31:22 AM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#246325: Jun 20th 2018 at 10:33:33 AM

~eyebones

Comparing Trump to anything is demeaning to whatever he's being compared to. At this point it doesn't matter what he's compared to.

[up][up][nja]

edited 20th Jun '18 10:33:58 AM by sgamer82


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