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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246276: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:54:56 AM

Trump is the incarnation of the negative side of Nice to the Waiter.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#246277: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:10:34 AM

[up][up][up] C'mon, he knew the guy for years. Is he honestly surprised by this?

I'm not.

[up] He's also the embodiment of "Yeah, but what have you done for me lately?"

edited 20th Jun '18 8:11:20 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#246278: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:15:47 AM

You know, a while back we were discussing the possibility of a military conflict with Canada. That still strikes me as a fantasy scenario, but I think the idea of a US invasion or military intervention in Mexico is becoming rather plausible. If the bad press continues, Trump will have further interest in denouncing Mexicans as "enemies" and rallying his base in a war frenzy. An invasion of Mexico would also allow him to move the detention centers into occupied Mexican territories, away from the prying eyes of the public. What's more, Mexico's probably going to vote the very left-wing, anti-Trump Andrés Manuel López Obrador as president in a few weeks, allowing the GOP to fire up an old-school "Communism at our doorstep!" red scare frenzy,

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#246279: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:16:37 AM

Pretty sure an invasion of Mexico isn't going to happen either.

Oh really when?
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#246280: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:20:21 AM

Yeah, I doubt it will happen either.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#246281: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:21:04 AM

Regarding the scenario of an American equivalent of the Numenburg Trials, I was wondering who else besides the Trump Administration (and Breitbart and Fox News) would also be placed on trial there?

edited 20th Jun '18 8:24:49 AM by MorningStar1337

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#246282: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:22:51 AM

The Drudge Report maybe?

Disgusted, but not surprised
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#246283: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:25:35 AM

Did you ask them how they missed all the obvious sign?
To note, all of them have been in the Never Hillary camp, and are only unhappy they didn't cast their votes for Gary Johnson. They thought Trump was playing to the Republican base and was not serious about all the racism or the corruption. And they all still think Hillary is worse than Trump, they just didn't think he would be this bad.
Mexico's probably going to vote the very left-wing, anti-Trump Andrés Manuel López Obrador as president in a few weeks, allowing the GOP to fire up an old-school "Communism at our doorstep!" red scare frenzy,
Except that nobody cares about Communism anymore. Especially not the Republicans.
I was wondering who else aside the Trump Administration would also be placed on trial there?
Currently, any kind of high-ranking ICE official, including the supervisors of our concentration camps.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#246284: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:28:06 AM

And they all still think Hillary is worse than Trump

The things people tell themselves to avoid acknowledging the full reality of how badly they fucked up...

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#246285: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:32:34 AM

Trump: "The Bushies are out to get me." Trump is so isolated that he fears holdovers from previous administrations are plotting his downfall.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#246286: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:33:16 AM

Except that nobody cares about Communism anymore. Especially not the Republicans.
Seriously, the idea of anyone seriously using Communism as a Casus Belli in the modern day is just ridiculous. A war with Mexico is a laughable fantasy that has near zero chance of occurring in our political climate, talking about it is almost as ridiculous as talking about a war with Canada.

edited 20th Jun '18 8:33:38 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#246287: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:39:41 AM

[up][up] And we wish then best if luck if they are

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#246288: Jun 20th 2018 at 8:48:00 AM

Okay so the the defendants of a Numenburg-like series of trials centered arounf Trump would include

  • The Trump Administration, natch.
  • Fox News, Breitbart and the Drudge Report (among others) for propaganda.
  • ICE, on grounds of separation of families and possibly child abuse.

Anything else likely to get tried in this scenario? I'd say that Russia and maybe at least certain websites and a subreddit might be likely to get put on trial for their own role in Trump's rise to power.

[up][up][up] We already know an Ethics Lawyer from the Bushes' administrations is going to run for the Democrats. And there is plenty of reasons for them to go after Trump (namely the fact that they dragged their party's name though the mud, regardless of the reputation they had prior or since, also the trade war.) It's not impossible.

edited 20th Jun '18 8:55:05 AM by MorningStar1337

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#246289: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:07:52 AM

Saw this a couple pages back and felt the need to comment on it:

Trump isn't a Caesar, though. He's the very image of an American Crassus: rich, sleazy, and incompetent. He's also profoundly unpopular, which makes far less in danger than the Roman Republic was in with Caesar.

This is a bad historical comparison and we need to stop making those. Marcus Crassus was a lot of things, most of them terrible, but he was not incompetent. He was one of Sulla's top lieutenants for a reason, and he and Pompey were a duumvirate who dominated the politics of the Roman Republic for the better part of two decades, before Caesar ever arrived on the scene. He crushed Spartacus when everyone before him had failed, and he more or less owned the Republic, given his income exceeded that of the state.

The myth of his incompetency stems solely from his defeat at the hands of the Parthian Persians. The Romans, unwilling to admit that the Parthians had produced a brilliant general in Surenas, slandered Crassus' reputation, insisting that he must have screwed up, because otherwise there was no way he could have been defeated by "barbarians". This is a standard imperial move; the USA does the same to every American general who is defeated by the Native Americans, declaring that the white general must have been an idiot, because there is no way the Natives could have produced a capable military leader.

Trump is anti-intellectual, stupid, has zero military or political experience, and is nowhere near as rich as he claims to be. He's got next to nothing in common with Crassus, or with any other political figure of the Roman Republican era. Making bad comparisons like this one, or many of the others I've seen people indulge in, only confuses the issue, and to an extent, validates the anti-intellectualism of Trump and those around him. We're supposed to learn from history, not distort it so we can use it as a club.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246290: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:08:16 AM

Roman history-wise: The issue was a bit more complex than either the Pro-Caesar and Pro-Brutus factions like to say as there's STILL debates on this. But boiled down to it, Caesar really was the first populist politician and really poisoned the well for Brutus' faction post-mortem. For example, his will paid a gift to every Roman citizen and he was wealthy enough to do it.

For example, if someone killed Obama or Bill Clinton and then in their will, every American was paid 5000 dollars (roughly the equivalent of what they got). This was after he'd won numerous military victories and liberally shared the spoils. Yes, he'd added dictatorial powers to himself but he'd gone well to making sure army veterans as well as the capitlal's public were provided for and was a famous general himself. There was a reason there was mass rioting in the streets and calls for Brutus and company to be executed.

If they'd gone further against Caesar and his people, they'd probably have ended up dead no matter what.

This is a standard imperial move; the USA does the same to every American general who is defeated by the Native Americans, declaring that the white general must have been an idiot, because there is no way the Natives could have produced a capable military leader.

Speaking as a historian, they've also tried to have them portrayed as noble martyrs killed by vastly superior forces.

We're supposed to learn from history, not distort it so we can use it as a club.

All history is propaganda and storytelling, just some of it is factual.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:12:53 AM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#246291: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:18:25 AM

Speaking as a historian, they've also tried to have them portrayed as noble martyrs killed by vastly superior forces.

Don't try to play the "speaking as a historian" card on me. You don't see me using it, and I'd appreciate you doing the same. This is not a pissing contest where we show off our credentials.

The American military has always gone the route of "our officer was a moron" often coupled with "the Natives were secretly led by white men" for good measure. They do it with Harmar, St Clair, Dade, Fetterman, Custer, the lot.

The "noble martyr" thing is a separate issue, and one that's far from mutually exclusive from portraying the officer in question as an imbecile. Custer was simultaneously mourned as a victim of "the savages" and denounced as a reckless idiot, which is why the field of study around the Great Sioux War remains divided between "Custerphiles" and "Custerphobes" to this day, a situation which, I will note in passing, badly impairs the field. The reality is Custer was neither of those things, and the sooner people figure that out, the better.

This is hardly limited to the USA. The British, Spanish, French, and Russians all do the same when they lose battles colonial wars; the Romans do it any time they lose to non-Romans. The latter is why generals killed in Rome's civil wars get to keep their reputations, while anyone killed by the Persians (Parthian or Sassanian) is usually written off as a dolt.

All history is propaganda and storytelling, just some of it is factual.

That is an awful and self-defeating position to take. "Everyone else is doing it" is not a justification for making factual distortions of your own. The job of the historian is to make a good faith effort at cutting through the aforementioned propaganda and reach something that is, if not reality, than close to it.

Don't justify incompetency or outright lying as a part of the field. Our job is to fight these issues, not excuse them.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:22:06 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#246292: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:18:26 AM

Ugh, just had someone throw this at me in another forum.

Peter Fonda rattled off a series of tweets today, calling for protests (good!), but then suggested that we "hack the system" to find out the home addresses of ICE agents to protest there (overboard), find out what schools their children go to and protest there (whoa now), and finally, suggesting we take Barron Trump away from Melania and lock him in a cage with pedophiles. Fonda, please Stop Helping Me.

90 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE STREETS ON THE SAME WEEKEND! THESE REPUBLICAN ASSHOLES ARE ALL IN ON IT! THE CHIEF ASSHOLE IS HAPPY WE ARE ALL VERY UPSET. WE HAVE TO GET EVEN MORE ANGRY WITH THESE REPUBLICANS.

"WE SHOULD HACK THIS SYSTEM, GET THE ADDRESSES OF THE ICE AGENTS CBP AGENTS AND SURROUND THEIR HOMES IN PROTEST. WE SHOULD FIND OUT WHAT SCHOOLS THEIR CHILDREN GO TO AND SURROUND THE SCHOOLS IN PROTEST. THESE AGENTS ARE DOING THIS CUZ THEY WANT TO DO IT. THEY LIKE DOING THIS. FUCK

WE SHOULD RIP BARRON TRUMP FROM HIS MOTHER’S ARMS AND PUT HIM IN A CAGE WITH PEDOPHILES AND SEE IF MOTHER WILL WILL STAND UP AGAINST THE GIANT ASSHOLE SHE IS MARRIED TO. 90 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE STREETS ON THE SAME WEEKEND IN THE COUNTRY. FUCK,

In brighter news, some enterprising person dug up an old Political Cartoon by Dr. Seuss, in which a woman wearing a shirt emblazoned "America First" reads "Adolf the Wolf" to children, saying "...and the wolf chewed up the children and spit out their bones… But those were Foreign Children, and it didn’t really matter."

edited 20th Jun '18 9:22:56 AM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246293: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:20:12 AM

Okay, no historian statement it is.

Mind you, I actually think Crassus military adventure in Persia was far outside of his wheelhouse and was a gross mistake on his part. Whenever one invades a territory, one should be well aware of one's enemies strength and the Parthians were quite a bit stronger than anyone believed at the time (but if they'd bothered to check would have noted). The fact Rome repeated it doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb idea for the sixty year old man to do.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:24:09 AM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#246294: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:30:27 AM

The Parthean Persians were the first people to use I Surrender, Suckers! as a tactic, right?

On topic. [up][up] I knew that Dr. Seuss had some WW 2 era political cartoons but damn does this seem relevant.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:32:28 AM by MorningStar1337

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246295: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:32:18 AM

That Fonda idiot needs to shut up, and be denounced, right the fuck now. His attitude only does harm.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246296: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:32:36 AM

https://www.thedailybeast.com/ice-cant-guarantee-immigrants-will-get-their-kids-back?ref=home

ICE is pretty sure they won't be able to reunite all the families.

Or any, really.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#246297: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:32:51 AM

Nevermind - comment I was responding to got changed.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:33:08 AM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#246298: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:35:48 AM

That is an awful and self-defeating position to take. "Everyone else is doing it" is not a justification for making factual distortions of your own. The job of the historian is to make a good faith effort at cutting through the aforementioned propaganda and reach something that is, if not reality, than close to it.

Don't justify incompetency or outright lying as a part of the field. Our job is to fight these issues, not excuse them.

Actually, it's an appeal to skepticism and to remember that history as taught is almost invariably tainted with slant and you need to examine the facts from multiple perspectives as well as how the historians themselves viewed the subject in order to get a factual view of the events.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#246299: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:36:38 AM

So, Trump is now looking for an out.

Breaking News: President Trump plans an executive order to stop separating families at the border by detaining them together. It may face a legal challenge.

For weeks, Trump refused to simply end his government’s “zero tolerance” policy.

But he's been furious about the pummeling he's taken in recent days and has been looking for an escape from the crisis.

God, he's predictable.

edited 20th Jun '18 9:39:32 AM by megaeliz

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246300: Jun 20th 2018 at 9:39:42 AM

Hmmm, let's see if this does anything to actually address the atrocity.

Can't wait to see the hardcore base flip their lids over this one.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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