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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#246251: Jun 20th 2018 at 5:30:35 AM

"Certainly, Brutus' killing Caesar arguably made it certain a tyrant would take over the Republic."

Brutus's mistake was that the Liberatores didn't go far enough. Killing Caesar himself was never going to finish the job while Caesarians like Mark Antony lived. As late as a year following Caesar's death, there was an anti-Caesarian ruling coalition in the Senate, but the real end came when both anti-Caesarian consuls died at Mutina, Mark Antony withdrew to the Alps, and Octavian defected from the Republic, allied with Antony, and marched on Rome, leaving a power vacuum Cicero was never able to fill before the Triumvirate killed him. Caesar absolutely had to die, though. His policies were transparently monarchical, eroded republican constitutionality, and would have become further entrenched had his campaign against Parthia actually happened and was successful. His assassination isn't really a lesson in how assassination doesn't prevent tyranny, but about how poorly planned actions come back to haunt you. It's also a lesson in appreciating institutional entrenchment — that cutting off the head will never be sufficient if the roots remain.

Trump isn't a Caesar, though. He's the very image of an American Crassus: rich, sleazy, and incompetent. He's also profoundly unpopular, which makes far less in danger than the Roman Republic was in with Caesar.

edited 20th Jun '18 5:39:37 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#246252: Jun 20th 2018 at 5:33:35 AM

Isn't crassus the origin of the word crass, a word that perfectly describes Trump?

Disgusted, but not surprised
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246253: Jun 20th 2018 at 5:38:11 AM

The first EU retaliatory tariffs against the US will go into effect on Friday.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/06/20/news/economy/europe-tariffs-us-goods/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#246254: Jun 20th 2018 at 5:55:20 AM

[up][up][up]Funnily enough, I once had a History teacher back in college who told everyone that Caesar was a misunderstood hero framed by his contemporaries as a tyrant who deserved to be looked at in a more favorable light. Not sure how accurate that is, but he was certainly passionate about it.tongue

edited 20th Jun '18 5:56:04 AM by kkhohoho

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#246255: Jun 20th 2018 at 5:56:42 AM

[up][up] Who wants to bet, that by the time the 46th President is sworn into office, that the trade war would turn jeans and motorbikes (among others) imports into luxury goods?

edited 20th Jun '18 5:57:48 AM by MorningStar1337

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246256: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:01:42 AM

For the US maybe. That's the issue with unifying the world against you, they have alternative sources to stuff from, while Trump burns bridges on your behalf.

edited 20th Jun '18 6:25:24 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#246257: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:07:12 AM

ICE Can't Be Compared To Nazis Since We're Just Following Orders

Here's the "defense" the ICE director used in case anyone was wondering. I have no idea if he actually believes this or is just spouting what he's been told to, but this situation really needs to get solved and if ICE can't be fixed, disband it (I was against it before but things changed).

edited 20th Jun '18 6:07:37 AM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#246258: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:09:19 AM

[up][up][up][up] There's actually still some debate over Caesar's motivations; it's important to remember that he was a member of the Populares - a pro-plebeian political faction - while his assassins were safeguarding the interests of the Roman elites.

So there's some serious doubt over the whole "Caesar was killed because he's a tyrant" thing - it was probably more because he wasn't acting in the interests of the Senate which - as you might remember - was basically bunch of rich old men trying to keep the plebs down.

edited 20th Jun '18 6:09:37 AM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#246259: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:11:00 AM

[up][up][up] Since they are going with the steamroll option, should they go all the way and Sanction Trump family and buisnesses, you think?

edited 20th Jun '18 6:12:39 AM by megaeliz

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#246260: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:18:22 AM

"There's actually still some debate over Caesar's motivations; it's important to remember that he was a member of the Populares - a pro-plebeian political faction - while his assassins were safeguarding the interests of the Roman elites.

So there's some serious doubt over the whole "Caesar was killed because he's a tyrant" thing - it was probably more because he wasn't acting in the interests of the Senate which - as you might remember - was basically bunch of rich old men trying to keep the plebs down."

The Populares weren't "pro-plebeian" in the sense you're thinking. It was a huge faction. Most were Trump-like rich men who used demagoguery to gain advancement. The perhaps only examples of the sincere progressives among them were the Gracchi, but even then, they made the Tribunate of the Plebs an office that was asking to be abused, since it gave an ambitious politician license to gather a mob and attack any law they didn't personally like. Most populares weren't principled reformers — Clodius, Catiline, Dolabella, and Mark Antony were little more than thugs.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246261: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:28:17 AM

[up][up]They haven't gone the Steamroller route yet, though keep an eye on China. So far the proposed counters are targeted to pressure certain politicians and defend attacked industries. And they are dollar for dollar in response to Trump.

Sanctioning the Trump organization might be harder to justify than simple retaliatory tariffs as well, as laws in some countries require some solid evidence to sanction someone. And I doubt most foreign powers are willing to outright call Trump/his Organization criminal before the authorities in his own country do.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#246262: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:34:06 AM

One of the most pervasive myths about Trump is that any second now, the people who voted for him will suddenly realize what kind of person he truly is.

Trump's voters know goddamn well what kind of person he is. It's why they voted for him.

Well, most of them. I've spoken to a few people who voted for him - and now bitterly regret it - but they're outnumbered at least 3-to-1 by the True Believers™.note 
It would not surprise me at all if ICE was doing something like gassing those kids or selling them into slavery to make war gear or material that Trump's people might need.
I don't think they're being put to use as child labor - if nothing else, that would be far more obvious to outside observers.
Who wants to bet, that by the time the 46th President is sworn into office, that the trade war would turn jeans and motorbikes (among others) imports into luxury goods?
Good grief, I better stock up on Levis while I have the chance. tongue

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246263: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:51:02 AM

See, if even that small minority of Regreters stays home or even defects on Election Day (2018 or 2020); it will make a difference in some places.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Ghilz Perpetually Confused from Yeeted at Relativistic Velocities Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Perpetually Confused
#246264: Jun 20th 2018 at 6:53:51 AM

I've spoken to a few people who voted for him - and now bitterly regret it

Did you ask them how they missed all the obvious sign?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#246265: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:19:24 AM

ICE Can't Be Compared To Nazis Since We're Just Following Orders

So we compare them to Stalin's lackeys instead? Besides, a lot of Nazis were following criminal orders.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#246266: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:21:44 AM

I think that's the point. You can't deflect comparisons to Nazis with the Nuremberg Defense

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#246268: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:28:28 AM

One of Trump's former campaign managers was asked how he reacted about an undocumented immigrant being forcibly separated from her daughter, who has Downs syndrome.

His reaction: "Womp, womp".

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/19/politics/corey-lewandowski-undocumented-immigrant-womp-womp/index.html

I think I hate these people.

[up]Now that is the kind of reaction I'm willing to accept from former Republicans; put your money and your votes where your mouth is.

edited 20th Jun '18 7:30:55 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#246269: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:29:54 AM

[up] And I know for a fact I do.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#246270: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:30:04 AM

[up][up]Ugh, if only we could jail these people for a while.

edited 20th Jun '18 7:31:07 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#246271: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:30:34 AM

[up]x9

I know at least two people who are stocking up on American booze before it gets return-tariffed, since most of the Scottish stuff is a bit more expensive.

[up][up][up][up]

Well done that man, although possibly a bit late. I was JUST thinking that if Eisenhower saw what was going on in the GOP right now he'd run a mile leftward and go stand on the left-wing of the Democratic Party. Flicking through British and American history and watching the Overton Window slide rightward is rather sobering, especially since it's accompanied neatly by an exponential rise in private debt as a substitute for actual growth.

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#246272: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:31:34 AM

What is the status of Corey under Mueller's probe again? I've lost track.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#246273: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:39:57 AM

That's a rather...unwise...statement to make given that such a defense is often referred to as a "Nuremberg Defense", as the Nazis used it frequently.

Though to be fair, the Nuremberg Trials ironically subverted the Nuremberg defense for the most part. The Nazis claimed they were just following orders, but such claims were seldom actually true. The people working in death camps usually got the job by being very enthusiastic.

Leviticus 19:34
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#246274: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:41:02 AM

Michael Cohen is frustrated Trump has not offered to pay his legal bills

For your daily bit of Schadenfreude.

Probably also the reason Cohen might flip.

edited 20th Jun '18 7:42:33 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#246275: Jun 20th 2018 at 7:46:18 AM

Trump, paying someone back? Nooooooo.....

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.

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