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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245651: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:11:51 PM

That said, North Korea has adopted fascism's racial purity tenants.

As Kazuya notes, the Khmer Rouge did the same thing. Ethnic nationalism and Stalinism go together more often than you might expect.

Trump isn't really a fascist. He lacks a lot of the defining features fascists have. He isn't really even properly totalitarian at this point, if only because the structure of the US government is holding him back. At best I'd say he has totalitarian tendencies. More damning, though, is his total incompetence when it comes to the responsibilities of his office.

It's important to distinguish between Trump and the government he "leads". Trump is, personally, a fascist or neofascist. He's a very, very incompetent one, however, which means the state remains a democracy, if a damaged one.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#245652: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:12:10 PM

Yet another court filing in the manafort case. At this point, this is just redundant. [1]

A new filing from the special counsel Robert Mueller unsealed on Wednesday identifies two former journalists and the content of messages former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort and a Russian associate sent them in February, just two days after a superseding indictment against Manafort.

The 21-page document also names members of the so-called “Hapsburg group” – described by Mueller in the February superseding indictment of Manafort as "a group of former senior European politicians to take positions favorable to Ukraine, including by lobbying in the United States.”

According to the document, some of the key participants of the Hapsburg group are former Austrian Chancellor Alfred Gusenbauer, former Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi, Belgian Judge Jean-Paul Moerman, head of the German Federal Chancellory Bodo Hombach and former Spanish NATO head Javier Solana.

The exhibit containing the names of Alan Friedman, Eckart Sager, Konstantin Kliminck, and Hapsburg group members, was filed by the clerk in an unredacted form on Wednesday afternoon but was re-filed a short time later in a redacted form with those names hidden.

Sager did not respond to ABC News' request for comment. Friedman was unable to be reached for comment

The existence of the text messages first came to light earlier this month, but the content of the messages was not publicly known until Wednesday’s filing. Last Thursday, Mueller, who is investigating Russian meddling during the 2016 election, cited the messages in accusing Manafort and his Russian associate, Konstantin Kliminck, of witness-tampering.

On Friday, Mueller filed a superseding indictment against Manafort that included Kliminck and new charges for obstruction of justice. Manafort faces two indictments in Washington, D.C., and Virginia on charges related to tax fraud and other financial crimes.

The special counsel has asked a federal judge in Washington, DC, to revoke Manafort's current $10 million bail. A hearing on Manafort’s bail is scheduled for this Friday.

Wednesday’s filing names Friedman and Sager – described in previous filings as Person D1 and Person D2 – as the recipients of Manafort and Kilimnik’s text messages.

According to those filings, on Feb. 26, Manafort sent a Business Insider article, in which it is reported that he had been charged with paying European leaders who were part of the Hapsburg group, to lobby on behalf of Ukraine to Friedman. He then wrote. “We should talk. I have made clear that they worked in Europe.”

In a series of messages sent in late February, Kilimnik asks Sager for assistance contacting Friedman.

“Basically P" - referring to Manafort - "wants to give him a quick summary that he says to everybody (which is true) that our friends never lobbied in the US, and the purpose of the program was EU,” Kilimnik wrote to Sager after asking him to mention the messages to Friedman. He then writes, “If you have a chance to mention this to A." - referring to Friedman - "it would be great. It would be good to get them connected to discuss in person. P is his friend.”

In April, Kilimnik reached out to Friedman directly in a message that said, “Hi. This is K. My friend P is looking for ways to connect to you to pass you several messages. Can we arrange that.”

Manafort’s trial in Virginia is slated to begin on July 25. His trial in Washington is scheduled for September 17.

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#245653: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:19:05 PM

Can we just all settle for calling Trump a corporatist?

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#245654: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:22:54 PM

I believe that the only thing putting a hard stop to Trump becoming a dictator is his own incompetence. If he were more competent (which might have killed his campaign to be President, ironically enough), we'd be completely screwed. All of our efforts amount to just slowing him and the Republicans down and stalling for time until the mid-terms and next election. If Trump was more competent, the Mueller investigation wouldn't be happening in the first place, and it's the only thing that really stands a chance of stopping his madness.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#245655: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:29:33 PM

I'm honestly scared of the door Trump had metaphorically opened,whoever comes in future may have already started taking notes and will already be more competent then Trump,especially when it comes to shutting down things like Muller investigations,and removing barriers like congress completely so they can rule without opposition

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#245656: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:31:14 PM

You can't remove Congress without a constitutional amendment, so that's a non starter.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#245657: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:33:01 PM

Trump has no solid ideology except narcissism. Put him in a room with sufficiently sycophantic communists and Trump would be singing the The Internationale in a week.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#245658: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:33:04 PM

Yeah, if we get control after Trump, we need to put a TON of safeguards in place to make sure this never happens again, it is downright appalling just how much he's getting away with simply by abusing loopholes and lying.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#245659: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:35:01 PM

[up] x8 Even calling him a neofascist is giving him too much credit. He has delusions of authoritarian grandeur, that's all. His ideology isn't coherent enough to be fascism.

edited 14th Jun '18 1:35:34 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#245660: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:37:03 PM

[up] Implying coherence is actually important in fascism.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#245661: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:40:51 PM

[up]Fascism is crazy, but it has its own internal logic.

As someone pointed out a couple posts up, Trump's political ideology is determined by whoever is kissing his ass at the moment. Notice that he ran the North Korean propaganda line to a T after coming out of the negotiations with them, no doubt because they spent the whole time telling him how great he was.

He doesn't really qualify as a fascist, more a garden variety totalitarian.

edited 14th Jun '18 1:40:57 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
DrDougsh Since: Jan, 2001
#245662: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:44:34 PM

There was a brief period during the transit period after Trump's election where he suddenly got bizarrely pro-Obama (or at least much less anti-Obama), presumably because during that period he had a few one-on-one sessions where Obama could butter him up. Trump's pro-whatever is saying nice things about him at any given moment. I'm fairly certain that under the right circumstances, ISIS could probably convert Trump to Islam by promising him he'd get to be their Caliph.

Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#245663: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:46:16 PM

[up][up]Have you actually tried to parse any of Hitler or Mussolini's works? They really, really are not as constant or consistent as you might think, for all they certainly put Trump in the shade when it comes to writing/ speaking actual sentences that work as sentences.

It's getting the paragraphs to link up that's at issue. They were really good at saying whatever their audience wanted to hear, whatever the logical inconsistencies.

edited 14th Jun '18 1:49:05 PM by Euodiachloris

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#245664: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:54:34 PM

How about stupid authoritarian asshole? I think that pretty much covers Trump to a T.

Trump delenda est
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#245665: Jun 14th 2018 at 1:54:57 PM

A good example of how fascism works is the American Nazi party where the leader, Fritz Julius Kuhn, embezzled $14,000 from their funds. The scandal had severe repercussions because the ideology was their leader had absolute power so he couldn't do any wrong.

Fascism is an ideology that benefits its members in whatever way it does. It is a liquid ideology in that respect and conforms to whatever benefits it.

Mussolini hates God then he cites God in his speeches constantly depending on his audience.

So, I'm comfortable saying fascism is a leader-obsessed military worshiping race-baiting nationalist ideaology and that the first example was Sparta.

edited 14th Jun '18 1:55:33 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#245666: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:00:46 PM

I'm reminded of a scene from the TV movie about the Nuremberg Trials where an American psychiatrist asked one of the defendants about the Nazi ideas and thoughts another defendant had been shouting at lunchtime to the rest to keep them from admitting guilt.

The defendant being talked to laughs mockingly. "What ideas? What thoughts!? They were only platitudes. Nazi Germany was built on empty platitudes."

When the psychiatrist expresses disbelief that a man as smart as him could fall for empty platitudes, the defendant just says, "Of course. Because you can hear in then anything you want."

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#245667: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:10:06 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, that just about covers it.

[up][up] We've been over this at more length in other threads, but Sparta isn't really fascist. That's an anachronistic application of the term, Fascism as we know it would have been incompatible with Sparta. Fascism grew out of a unique set of political and economic circumstances in the early 19th century, and it's pretty inexorably tied to those circumstances.

Fascism relies pretty heavily on a conception of the nation that didn't exist when Sparta was around. That conception informs their obsession with a national struggle, and their hierarchical and economic systems. Militarism is only one aspect of fascism.

The rhetoric may be empty, but fascist states follow a few very distinct patterns.

edited 14th Jun '18 2:13:23 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245668: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:37:26 PM

So, I'm comfortable saying fascism is a leader-obsessed military worshiping race-baiting nationalist ideaology and that the first example was Sparta.

Sparta's not fascist. Let's not start this nonsense up again. The first proto-fascist movements are the Klan and the Young Turks. That's as far back as we can take it before the term becomes meaningless.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#245669: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:37:26 PM

Eh, Sparta more or less created nationalism as we know it. It created a distinct Spartan identity which was separate from all other Greecian cities or cultures of the time.

edited 14th Jun '18 2:37:41 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245670: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:38:56 PM

Fascism is a reaction to—and to a large part against—the modern nation-state. You cannot have fascism in a society that predates the nation-state. It doesn't work that way.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#245671: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:43:40 PM

Also, Sparta's militarism is, in part, informed by popular culture which tends to blow it out of proportion.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#245672: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:45:06 PM

Let me guess, a certain film and meme had most to do with that?

edited 14th Jun '18 2:45:19 PM by MorningStar1337

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#245673: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:45:38 PM

Sparta created nationalism, really? Most of the arguments I've seen about nationalism place its birth after the Reformation....but Ancient Greece? The Spartans were expansionists and highly mobilized for war, other than that (well, we know a lot about them because we have access to contemporary writings....from their enemies) they aren't unique in the grand scheme of things.

[up][up][tup]

edited 14th Jun '18 2:45:57 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245674: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:47:25 PM

Sparta's importance has been blown out of proportion for centuries. Frank Miller's hackwork was just the most recent iteration of it.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#245675: Jun 14th 2018 at 2:50:23 PM

Sparta's war prowess, military power and myth-making had been exaggerated since Herodotus. 300 is just writing itself into that tradition.

edited 14th Jun '18 2:50:48 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.

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