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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#245251: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:35:34 PM

Many aren't able to pay the bills and the only option is to lose the farm and cease to be farmers or not feed their kids.

Yeah that’s kinda how being in a dying industry works, you get out or you starve.

it strikes me a basic feature of the middle class is, "not in constant danger of hunger or losing their home."

Thing is they’re not in danger of hunger or losing their home because the lack money or assets, they’re in danger of hunger or losing their home because they’re to stubborn to get out of an industry that’s no longer profitable. The problem isn’t their economic situation, it’s them and the toxic culture they embrace.

They have land, if you want a defining characteristic for being middle class it’s right there, owning property, that’s how once upon a time the right to vote was granted. Or we can go for another trait, the fact that they own a buisness, they’re far from the only small business owners to struggle, but that doesn’t make them working class.

The poor, the realy poor don’t have the fallback of selling the farm and taking a job they don’t like for a big company, they’ve got no assets and are already working at least one (often two) jobs they don’t like.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#245252: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:38:16 PM

Thing is they’re not in danger of hunger or losing their home because the lack money or assets, they’re in danger of hunger or losing their home because they’re to stubborn to get out of an industry that’s no longer profitable. The problem isn’t their economic situation, it’s them and the toxic culture they embrace.

There is a lot of wrong here to unpack. However, let's begin with the fact that switching one's livelihood and skill set is not magically done. Liquidating assets is also not a magical solution for long term viability. We also NEED the products produced by farmers. It's also not a dying industry, because food is a necessity, it is an industry being consumed by big conglomerates.

Your solution is functionally identical to bankruptcy ("liquidate assets, try something else")

edited 11th Jun '18 7:39:46 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#245253: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:39:37 PM

Farming as an independent farmer is a dying industry. The days of our food being provided mostly by rugged individidual farmers taming the land are long gone.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245254: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:40:01 PM

Stay in a dying industry, lose money. That's how that goes.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#245255: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:41:43 PM

It's also another agenda of the Right Wing.

Which they claim to be against.

Surprise, surprise.

I'm enirely comfortable with the idea farmers should be subsidized for their labors and large unions of farmers working together for the benefit of their efforts. Letting the corporations dominate all food growth is a recipe for disaster—and has been disastrous.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#245256: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:42:11 PM

Farming must be industrialized to continue to support people. That's just the way things are.

Lamplighters are out of business too. It's no different.

Absolutely nothing can be done to save the small independent farm. Our focus needs to be on making their movement to other industries as easy as possible

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#245257: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:42:58 PM

Stay in a dying industry, lose money. That's how that goes.

Again, it's not dying, it's being parceled up to corporations and pressure from the government benefiting from them.

It's Trumpism.

Furthermore, they get out of the industry—they are once more in a job market where they just become the hand to mouth poor. I'd prefer we work to make it so vital industries which are needed by Americans are preserved to benefit the poor of America, which include farmers.

edited 11th Jun '18 7:44:00 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#245258: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:43:31 PM

As a former Girl Scout, I can see so many things wrong with this.

And they say that kneeling during the National Anthem is disrespectful to the flag. The North Korean Flag next to the American Flag.

edited 11th Jun '18 7:47:43 PM by megaeliz

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#245259: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:43:55 PM

It's adjusting to the needs of a growing population.

Small farms can't feed America anymore. They can't even feed the towns they're in.

Times are changing and food production is ultimately no different than any other industry. It must change as well.

edited 11th Jun '18 7:44:35 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#245260: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:44:54 PM

There's nothing smaller farms can't be adjusted to with the slightest bit of effort.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#245261: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:46:37 PM

How about mass food production at an affordable price for consumers?

They sure can't seem to do that well enough to stay alive.

Oh really when?
Imca (Veteran)
#245262: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:47:36 PM

The industrial output needed to feed 8 billion people for one.

Small farms are just incapable of the scale of food production needed to feed the human population any more, hell even industrial farms cant do it substantially.... and efficiency goes up with scale, that is production 101.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#245263: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:51:36 PM

Liquidating the employment of 3.2 million people involved in agriculture for a fraction of those employed by larger farm groups and who pay pennies seems to be an economic decision I'm surprised to see defended here.

What will the jobs they get be replaced by?

And what stability do they have, unstable as it may be, without the farm?

Bluntly, I'm definitely of the mind the government should use its resources to promote and encourage financial stability among independent farmers. Sorry.

edited 11th Jun '18 7:52:26 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#245264: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:52:06 PM

Why are you fighting so hard on this? I don't think anyone said any of this is easy, just that, on the whole, farmers have more options than true working-class people.

edited 11th Jun '18 7:52:38 PM by LSBK

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#245265: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:53:23 PM

They certainly have more options than their farmhands.

Disgusted, but not surprised
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#245266: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:53:45 PM

Small farms cannot feed people

There is absolutely nothing anyone can do about that. No amount of government money or investment or financial support can change that.

The question is not how to save independent farms but how to save all the people who were formerly employed by them.

Oh really when?
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#245267: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:53:50 PM

let's begin with the fact that switching one's livelihood and skill set is not magically done.

They don’t have to change their skill set, I’m sure Monsanto is hiring. What they do have to do is swallow their pride and realise that small farms are on the way out, they either move to a part of the industry where they aren’t their own boss, or they go niche (organic/free range, or do side things like be a farm/petting zoo, ect...).

Your solution is functionally identical to bankruptcy ("liquidate assets, try something else")

Welcome to life, no job is forever and one has to move with the times.

To be super blunt, small farmers are not entitled to have their little farming RPG subsidised by the taxpayer just because their ego can’t take accepting that times have changed and they need to get a job that pays the bills like everybody else. I’ve also got no sympathy for people who’d rather let their kids go hungry that accept that their dream of being a big man farmer is dead.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#245268: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:55:26 PM

[up] There are legitimate criticisms to make of Agrabuiness.

Of the top of my head, I can think of the use of monocultures and harmful chemicals and fertilizers, as well as generally being more carbon intensive and less environmentally sound.

edited 11th Jun '18 7:56:55 PM by megaeliz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#245269: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:56:30 PM

Too bad the more vocal critics of Monsanto resort to things like "they caused suicides in India!"

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245270: Jun 11th 2018 at 7:57:42 PM

We don't subsidize mom and pop shops when they get put out of business by Wal-Mart. Subsidizing farmers is the exact same situation, and just as fundamentally pointless. Unfortunately we've idealized and idolized farming for so long that people refuse to see this.

Farmers are not the proletariat. If you want to go full Marxist, they are exploiters of the proletariat.

Imca (Veteran)
#245271: Jun 11th 2018 at 8:00:19 PM

Small farms cannot feed people

There is absolutely nothing anyone can do about that. No amount of government money or investment or financial support can change that.

The question is not how to save independent farms but how to save all the people who were formerly employed by them.

Garcon has summed up the problem right here, there is a difference between "They need a livleyhood" and "every one else needs to eat" and that difference is there is many options to solve the former, but the later not something that can be solved by small farms.

UBI, subsidies re-training, government job gaurnetee.... Take your pick, all of these would benefit even more people then just the ones listed, but small farms is cutting off the head to save the arm... it focuses on saving a few people, while fucking over every one else.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245272: Jun 11th 2018 at 8:04:06 PM

Farmers are subsidized members of the bourgeoisie. For anyone to take the position that this is somehow a good thing from a Marxist or hard-leftist perspective is bizarre and always has been.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#245273: Jun 11th 2018 at 8:04:11 PM

Shit with UBI they could genuinely just play at being a farmer, I’ve no issue with that once we get UBI in, the entire idea of UBI is that people don’t have to focus everything on being bale to pay bills and can take up non profitable pursuits.

But they ain’t getting their own special farmers UBI, especially not under some false claim of Socalism, subsidising the bourgeoisie isn’t socalism. We want to go full socialism we can turn their farms into communes for people to live communal subsistence lives, that or have giant state run farms.

edited 11th Jun '18 8:05:11 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#245274: Jun 11th 2018 at 8:05:36 PM

To go full Marxist, we'd probably have to turn over the farms to the farmhands.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#245275: Jun 11th 2018 at 8:06:25 PM

Going with the Stalinist model, we'd kill off the small farmers as kulaks and then collectivize.

We probably shouldn't go with the Stalinist model.

edited 11th Jun '18 8:06:51 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar


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