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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#244951: Jun 9th 2018 at 9:22:17 PM

It doesn’t help that he’s got a serious cult of personality issues, which with him being a white man feads into some nasty ideas about white men coming to save women and minorities because they can’t do it themselves.

Apologies for dredging this up, but I was playing catchup on the thread and... well, statements like this bother me, as I hear "White men can't be allies - and even if they can be, they shouldn't lead." I realize that's not the intent of such statements, but plenty of other white guys don't, and will take umbrage at it.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#244952: Jun 9th 2018 at 9:27:48 PM

Depending on the issue, while the advantages of being white can give white allies a lot of power to enact change relative to a singular minority individual of the same social standing, it's probably not the best for them to take the lead as opposed to working side by side and deferring, much in the same way that it's not a good idea for a Methodist to become the spokesperson for Sikh acceptance, unless said Methodist grew up in a Sikh household, and even then it's probably better to let a lifetime and continued Sikh do the bulk of advocacy.

It's not that their good-faith help is unwelcome, on the contrary it's very much appreciated, and anyone who expresses hostility towards allies on principle probably isn't a very good activist or person for that matter, but people not belonging to the group that's being advocated for shouldn't be placed in a position to talk over those who've actively lived those experiences more directly and holistically.

edited 9th Jun '18 9:35:44 PM by AlleyOop

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#244953: Jun 9th 2018 at 10:07:14 PM

statements like this bother me, as I hear "White men can't be allies - and even if they can be, they shouldn't lead." I realize that's not the intent of such statements, but plenty of other white guys don't, and will take umbrage at it.

The ability of angry white boys trying to be offended to take a clear statement about one individual in one particular positon and extrapolate it into something else is not really something we can do anything about, I guess we can offer them a spot on the Olympic team for conclusion jumping, but that’s about it.

but people not belonging to the group that's being advocated for shouldn't be placed in a position to talk over those who've actively lived those experiences more directly and holistically.

Hell good natured talking over can often just be a failure to coordinate, the input of people who aren’t part of a victimised group can often have a greater impact due to the appearance of neutrality and a lack of self interest (because self interest is aparently always bad).

The problem with Sanders is that the talking over others and knocking them down is being done very deliberately, because he views himself as the one true saviour, the carrier of the White Man's Burden, and that concept has done a lot of damage throughout history. That arrogance of assuming that one knows better than the exploited about how to help them end their exploitation, it’s dangerous and it’s something Sanders very much has.

White men can lead, Sanders can’t, because he’s not a team player, that’s bad enough normally, but when it’s a wealthy white man that’s not a team player, it’s especially bad.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#244954: Jun 9th 2018 at 10:22:49 PM

The thing that worried me the most about Sanders was more his foreign policy than the social issues. Like, he clearly barely understood foreign policy at all, and tended towards isolationism whenever he actually gave an answer on it. And foreign policy is a huge chunk of what the presidency does

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#244955: Jun 9th 2018 at 10:30:08 PM

We're seeing that now with how Trump fucks up everything related to it.

SlavetoTropes Since: Nov, 2017
#244956: Jun 10th 2018 at 2:13:11 AM

Well, Trump just blew up the G7-communique and personally insulted the canadian leader while doing so:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jun/10/g7-in-disarray-after-trump-rejects-communique-and-attacks-weak-trudeau

Donald Trump has left the G7 network of global cooperation in disarray after he pulled the US out of a previously agreed summit communique, blaming the Canadian prime minister Justin Trudeau whom he derided as “dishonest and weak”.

The US president, who arrived at the summit in Canada late and left early to fly to Singapore to prepare for his summit with Kim Jong-un, shocked fellow leaders with a bellicose press conference on Saturday in which he attacked the trade policies of other countries.

The US had nevertheless appeared to agree a form of words on contentious issues thanks to an all-night negotiating session by officials from all sides.

But after leaving for Singapore, Trump tweeted personal attacks on Trudeau and said that he had told his representatives not to sign the summit communique, turning what had already been a tense meeting of the world’s leading industrialised democracies into a fiasco.

“PM Justin Trudeau acted so meek and mild,” he tweeted. “Only to give a news conference after I left saying that ‘us tariffs were kind of insulting’ and ‘he will not be pushed around’.

“Very dishonest and weak” he claimed, adding in a separate tweet: “I have instructed our US reps not to endorse the communique.”

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#244957: Jun 10th 2018 at 2:57:44 AM

Honestly, what the hell is Trump's issue with Trudeau? Still p... off about the handshake?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#244958: Jun 10th 2018 at 3:04:18 AM

[up] I wouldn't be surprised. Remember that this man is demolishing Obama's efforts over being roasted once for his birtherism. He is a petty, petty man.

edited 10th Jun '18 3:04:31 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#244959: Jun 10th 2018 at 3:13:32 AM

Sounds to me like we're heading toward the G6 after all.

That said, as much as it's true that we can't be trusted on the world stage anymore, I do hope people understand that this asshat doesn't represent what most Americans really want. I can see this too easily leading to people guffawing at the dumb Americans getting kicked out of G7 while completely ignoring their own nascent Trump movements, and as ashamed as I am of Trump and his like, I hope the rest of the world doesn't just give up on us.

It's been fun.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#244960: Jun 10th 2018 at 3:21:44 AM

Except he kind of does. You elected him, and even if you go for "but that was not what we wanted", he is backed up by equally elected Republicans. This is not just about Trump, this is about the Republicans as a whole, and they represent roughly half of the population.

AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#244961: Jun 10th 2018 at 3:29:06 AM

Trump only won because of the Electoral College, in terms of the popular vote Hillary won by a decent margin.

Imca (Veteran)
#244962: Jun 10th 2018 at 3:39:08 AM

2% of voters is not really a "decent" margin when the candidate was as bad as he was. Just being that close, even if he HAD lost, says bad things about the country as a whole.

edited 10th Jun '18 3:39:55 AM by Imca

DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#244963: Jun 10th 2018 at 3:59:11 AM

[up][up][up][up]

He has a 43% approval rating, doesn't he? That's 5 points better than Obama at his worst, you can't really claim that he's not what you wanted when nearly half the country thinks he's doing a good job or doesn't care that he isn't.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#244964: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:12:23 AM

Well, I suppose that answers my question.

It's been fun.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#244965: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:16:19 AM

Yeah. The only saving grace is that the French voting public are almost as poisoned, and the British are worse. Makes me feel better for no good reason that America isn't the only country this bad.

edited 10th Jun '18 4:17:23 AM by Ramidel

Wariolander Since: Nov, 2017
#244966: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:17:34 AM

[up] Italy are by far the worst. They haven't made a good political decision since the end of the Roman Republic.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#244967: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:22:33 AM

Trump has more support than Hitler ever got. I said it before but take it from a German: If you have a democratic system, you are responsible for the leaders you get, and you will be made responsible for what they are up to. And rightly so. That doesn't mean that we hate all Americans, but it means that we can't trust the US as a whole and won't be able to do so again anytime soon.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#244968: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:23:50 AM

Trump was a a serious lapse in judgement. We will fix that in two years.

edited 10th Jun '18 4:25:02 AM by megaeliz

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#244969: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:38:14 AM

Just liked you fixed Bush? Yeah...let's talk again in ten years….

DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#244970: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:42:52 AM

[up][up]

You might start to fix it in four months, although I'm not sure that a retake of the House will slow Trump down much given he does most everything with executive power anyway. He's done tax cuts already so probably nothing more on that front, Obamacare is gutted, does he get another go at reconciliation before the midterms?

[up]x4

I can't honestly blame most of the Italians for hating their state when their pols used to be able to walk out of their Parliament building straight into a restaurant called "The Privileged Ones" without a hint of irony. Hence the high government debt and tax avoidance, I would imagine.

[up]x5

The British voting public has a strange case of hypochondria in that they only seem to be interested in the non-problems like government debt and welfare fraud rather than tax avoidance and generally living in a crumbling country led by venal cowards.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#244971: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:53:13 AM

The British situation is partially explained by a heavily politicised media, where 80% of the media circulation is telling people to believe everything the Tories tell them. We've got political brainwashing on an industrial scale going on in the UK, something that's been happening for at least forty years, but which became a true game-changer twenty-six years ago when it was 'The Sun Wot Won It' — that means entire generations have been raised on this viewpoint, reinforced everywhere they look.

Why do you think these 'traditional' media channels hate the Internet so much? They've discovered the youngest generation of adults are circumventing them entirely and therefore are exposed to different, and more international, points-of-view.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#244972: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:54:19 AM

[up][up][up]That's basically my reaction when Trump won. Again, this is coming from the nation that voted Dubya in two terms.

edited 10th Jun '18 4:54:26 AM by RainingMetal

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#244973: Jun 10th 2018 at 4:55:11 AM

Can I just chime in and say it's really shitty to blame the entire United States for Republicans electing a blubbering manchild? Like, blame Republicans, third-party voters, and leftist abstainers all you want, don't lump up the people who voted for Clinton in with them.

This is the exact shit I was talking about in the U.S. Cultures thread.

edited 10th Jun '18 4:57:16 AM by PhysicalStamina

i'm tired, my friend
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#244974: Jun 10th 2018 at 5:00:28 AM

Yeah, Swan, dial it down. Going All Americans on this is just petty-populism.

edited 10th Jun '18 5:02:33 AM by 3of4

"You can reply to this Message!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#244975: Jun 10th 2018 at 5:06:42 AM

My previous caption on my avatar was "Don't blame me I voted for HRC".

Do I really need to change back to that?

Disgusted, but not surprised

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