Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines
before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules
when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
The party has by and large moved left to be similar to Sanders on a number of economic issues, what’s its refused to do is either buy into his cult of personality (which is the main area that Sanders splits from the Democratic Party, he wants to be king) or move to the right on guns and identity issues.
The Democratic Party is more left wing that Sanders on a number of issues, he’s to the right on international relations (being an isolationist), guns (being heavily connected to the guns industry), women (he and many of his more vocal supporters don’t observe red lines on women’s rights the same way and think women’s rights need less focus) and minorities (Sanders has a serious problem with not wanting to talk about racial issues, and when he does talk about them people wish he hadn’t because he’s so tone deaf).
Keep in mind that I like Sanders, but is very much to the right of the party on a number of issues.
X4 Yep, he basicly destroyed the US’s international reputation with war mongering, disregard for international law and disregard for human rights. Remember that Bush’s invasion of Iraq is still being used as a justification for hostile acts today. Trump has made this shit a pattern.
edited 9th Jun '18 9:19:39 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranIt's more a spiral...Bush's action in Iraq haven't been forgotten but thankfully everyone thought that the freedom fries thing was mostly ridiculous and Bush never outright attacked his allies (he just misused them). And remember, he ended with a financial crisis which dragged everyone down with the US, and which was largely caused by deregulation. Still, it needed more or less Obama's whole presidency to patch up the damage somewhat. Trump undoing everything Obama did (including removing the regulations on the finance markets) ensures that it will be decades before the damage is repaired, if ever.
The idea of Clinton running again is nothing more than a delusion put forth by the people who obsessively hate her, it's just ant-Clinton wankery and nothing more.
She is not going to run again
edited 9th Jun '18 9:33:28 AM by Fourthspartan56
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI find this to be an extremely wrong statement.
I think one of the areas Sanders gets attacked on the most is the fact he believes poverty in America as a whole needs to be tackled. Which gets mischaracterized as Sanders not having an opinion on racial issues.
She is not going to run again
Is it by the people who hate her?
I think a lot of people have the delusion of her running again because they'd like a do over.
edited 9th Jun '18 9:49:48 AM by CharlesPhipps
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Really? Because he's attacked identity politics
which universally means "don't talk about race or sexuality".
He's rather blatantly apathetic towards race, sexuality, or anything that isn't class. Which is why I did not and still don't view him as Presidential material.
edited 9th Jun '18 9:50:55 AM by Fourthspartan56
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangI think that's been misconstrued but then again, I do view the divisions on talking about the poor being divided on race versus the poor being addressed directly as a whole is a big thing.
Mind you, I'm aware whenever attempts to alleviate poverty as a whole happens, the minorities get screwed because the people involved in carrying out inevitably turn out to be bigots.
Come together is a good slogan but it seems everyone is more divided than ever.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Mind you, I'm aware whenever attempts to alleviate poverty as a whole happens, the minorities get screwed because the people involved in carrying out inevitably turn out to be bigots. Come together is a good slogan but it seems everyone is more divided than ever.
edited 9th Jun '18 9:59:52 AM by Fourthspartan56
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangHere’s the thing, Sanders might not be wrong about how to address poverty issues even for minorities (social security and Medicaid cover more than just white people, white people do become more willing to share once they are taken care of, shit if segregated universal healthcare had been introduced with the new deal it would probably now be desegregated and thus a boon to everyone), but he’s a fucking arse about it. He keeps dismissing ‘identity politics’ (all politics is identity politics) as not important or worthy of any focus.
It doesn’t help that he’s got a serious cult of personality issues, which with him being a white man feads into some nasty ideas about white men coming to save women and minorities because they can’t do it themselves.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranNothing's been misconstrued. Sanders made repeat calls to abandon identity politics and focus on the White Working Class. He's helped provide a generation of white college brocialists with the idea that it is acceptable to decide that once every white man in the world is happy with his lot in life, they can then worry about helping women and minorities.
From dismissing black voters as "The Confederacy" to shots about "it's not enough to say 'vote for me I'm a woman'" or "vote for me I'm a Latina" Sanders has gone out of his way to push the notion that there's no reason beyond "identity politics" to vote for a minority candidate when you've got a perfectly good white man to vote for. It's a very toxic, and very right-wing mentality, and the idea he represents leftism while holding such regressive views is laughable.
Economic reform will not help large swathes of the poor in the country, and that's because those poor are minorities who have problems that go beyond their poverty. Sanders does not get that, and worse yet, he's told all of his followers that they don't have to get that.
edited 9th Jun '18 10:05:31 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Trump at G7: US president calls for end to tariffs and trade barriers
Well, that took less effort than I thought it would. Go home, rescind that executive order, everyone can buy bourbon and pipes cheaply again?
Re: Clinton thing
Is that group of the American left really big enough to start collecting trademark conspiracy theories? I was not aware, it was just an idea me and a few friends from across the pond were batting around during politics talk.
Re: Sanders
An economic focus doesn't necessarily translate into "white supremacist socialism forever", especially since the kind of libertarian nonsense he's crusading against tends to disproportionately screw minority groups and give free rein to racists anyway. I'm going to have to disagree that you need to put social reform first, since people are quantifiably less racist and xenophobic when they are more comfortable and seem more secure, which seems to suggest that you'd want to do both at once while campaigning on the former to avoid losing votes from the White Working Class(TM), who while you may not like them do have the vote and have a chronic cases of "no nice things for minorities" even when they're quite receptive to actual leftie policies taken individually. I admit I haven't followed his appearances particularly closely, but he seems more tone-deaf than racist.
I fail to see how stuff like universal healthcare and free college wouldn't help women or minorities, although I do admit he's been a complete pillock about most of his messaging and it would probably be more productive for him to let someone else run the show at this point.
edited 9th Jun '18 10:17:22 AM by DeathorCake
Saying it once is tone deaf. Saying it multiple times indicates that you have a problem with race.
Many of the economic reforms Sanders suggests will not help minorities, because many of those minorities, courtesy of racist policies and attitudes, live lives that are cut off from the greater economic life of the country. Native Americans are the far too obvious example, but there are African-American and Hispanic communities in inner cities and isolated rural areas who are near as separated from the greater, white-run economy.
The Democratic Party is more left wing that Sanders on a number of issues, he’s to the right on international relations (being an isolationist), guns (being heavily connected to the guns industry), women (he and many of his more vocal supporters don’t observe red lines on women’s rights the same way and think women’s rights need less focus) and minorities (Sanders has a serious problem with not wanting to talk about racial issues, and when he does talk about them people wish he hadn’t because he’s so tone deaf).
Keep in mind that I like Sanders, but is very much to the right of the party on a number of issues.
Sure, but I don't think that would have necessarily happened if he had joined the party. Regardless of their personal politics I don't think the leadership would have appreciated being displaced by Sanders and those aligned with him, and would have made the "Democratic Party Civil War" a much more overt thing.
TLDR, I don't think Sanders joining the Democrats would have necessarily been a good thing.
And to be honest I'm still a little skeptical about if/when the time comes to do these things that a right-wing propaganda blitz, and/or more conservative backbenchers in the style of Joe Liberman might sink the projects like what happened with the public option.
@Deathorcake: It does not necessarily have to be true, but it has been the practice since the New Deal, because of the need for Southern Democrats to support those measures, and the locally based implementation of many programs (see where Medicaid hasn't been expanded and where TANF money is not actually used for TANF).
it's pretty much coincidence that after the Civil Rights Act, Southern Democrats turned against the idea of a welfare state (though to be fair they were heavily for it to begin with) and strated voting Republican.
That this has been used as a wedge issue on the left has been sad but not surprising.
edited 9th Jun '18 10:39:15 AM by Mio
If Sanders has joined and personally run to be DNC chair yeah I could have seen issues cropping up, but there’s plenty of room for him to simply identify as a Democrat without displacing the entire party leadership.
Or there would be if he could shelve his ego for 20 seconds and stop insisting that he has to be the grand revolutionary leader.
![]()
Universal healthcare benefits everyone (well it benefits most minorities, native Americans on tribal lands are in a very different legal situation due to technically being micro-nations within the US), free university does help with social mobility (and with the ever increasing number of women going to university it will probably benefit women more than men), what actual specific policy ideas has he suggested that won’t help in general? Yes he’s a total arse who gives no shitshow about minorities, that’s I grant, but his policy ideas aren’t segregation.
edited 9th Jun '18 10:37:46 AM by Silasw
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
x6
Well, that took less effort than I thought it would. Go home, rescind that executive order, everyone can buy bourbon and pipes cheaply again?
He's not talking about America's Tariffs, he's talking about the Tariffs the other countries created against the United States. He's not against his own tariffs because they're meant to protect American Jobs from 'dirty foreign' jobs; he hates the tariffs other countries have on the US for the same reason.
It can be argued that Sander's class based focused stuff would help women and minorities, but what he (perhaps willfully) doesn't acknowledge is that while poverty and economic stress exacerbates racial and gender prejudices, it's not the source of them. If you don't acknowledge that you're just treating symptoms rather than the actual cause.
edited 9th Jun '18 10:44:20 AM by LSBK
![]()
![]()
![]()
Given the shenanigans involved with Keith Ellison running for DNC chair, a person who has been in the party for awhile, I can't imagine the kind of bloodbath it would have been if Bernie decided to run for DNC chair. And honestly he probably would have, since unlike Warren who is content with being an attack dog he would have wanted to have a leadership role in the party.
edited 9th Jun '18 10:50:30 AM by Mio
I will say this thread has convinced me that Trump voters were motivated by racism in large part versus the economic anxiety I had whole heartedly believed (and sadly naively).
I'm also not convinced at least some voters for Sanders voted for Trump because at the end of the day, still dudes.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

@sgamer82: Remember the "freedom fries" movement due to France not wanting to get involved in the Iraq War? I shudder at the ridiculousness of the thing.
Life is unfair...