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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#243651: May 27th 2018 at 11:05:58 AM

On the one hand, Trump's hires have definitely been incompetent, but part of that comes from choosing people actively hostile to their own jobs, so it could go either way

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#243652: May 27th 2018 at 11:07:29 AM

If McConnell is so good at politics, then how come he failed to stop Obama's reelection? evil grin

Do not obey in advance.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#243653: May 27th 2018 at 11:18:47 AM

Giuliani probably feels safe in saying things like that because Trump's base will never hear it, and even if they do it will be easily spun as necessary for Trump to combat the deep state/ swamp, or they simply won't care .

They feel so safe that they can openly talk about criminal activity and not expect repercussions.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#243654: May 27th 2018 at 11:18:49 AM

My understanding from the bit John Oliver did on him is that Rudi has always been like this and that it’s never made sense.

In that case, we're back to the fact that Giuliani and Mueller apparently have known each other very well over a long period of time and therefore Mueller won't be simply be unsurprised by Giuliani's behaviour, he'll have anticipated it.

On the one hand, Trump's hires have definitely been incompetent, but part of that comes from choosing people actively hostile to their own jobs, so it could go either way

I think that's the point. I don't believe it's evidence of Trump's incompetence that Scott Pruitt was hired for the EPA. I believe that's actually one of the competent things Trump's done: for someone who is anti-science, anti-climate change, and anti-environmental protections, Pruitt is the perfect candidate to place in charge of the organisation to gut it.

That's likely to be the case with most of his appointments, where someone antithetical to the department has been placed in charge of it: they're exactly the right people to hamstring and even destroy those departments.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#243655: May 27th 2018 at 11:51:15 AM

@Silasw: The quote is very simple, but the case law has expanded this.

for any Speech or Debate in either House, [senators and representatives] shall not be questioned in any other place.

https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Speech+or+Debate+Clause has a bit of the Supreme Court precedent surrounding this, though.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#243656: May 27th 2018 at 12:10:23 PM

If Mc Connell is so good at politics, then how come he failed to stop Obama's reelection?

He successfully obstructed much of Obama's agenda and managed to steal a Supreme Court nomination from him. He literally refused to do his job and then he was rewarded when his entire party overwhelmingly conquered every chamber of Washington.

Do not let the fact that we have won some victories against him distract from the fact that he's pretty much the head guy of an obstructionist campaign that's been very successful at both tearing down public faith in Democrats and reaping numerous rewards for the Republican party.

McConnell knows exactly what he's doing and needs to be handled with extreme caution. He's not about to be taken down by some amateur-hour horseshit like obstructing the Special Counsel's investigation.

edited 27th May '18 12:11:58 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#243657: May 27th 2018 at 12:21:58 PM

[up] But what about Nunes?

How far does the "Speach and Debate" clause go? Does it apply only when they are actually "speaking and debating" in congress or is it more expansive than that?

edited 27th May '18 12:23:08 PM by megaeliz

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#243658: May 27th 2018 at 12:24:59 PM

Nunes is the perfect sacrificial idiot to try and shut down the investigation and get nailed on obstruction charges. It's been no secret that he's a Trump patsy. He's been one since the House Intelligence Committee started their investigation.

McConnell knows that as long as he keeps paying lip service to the important of the investigation while killing bills meant to actually secure it, it's only a matter of time before someone like Nunes gets desperate. I have no doubt that his end goal is something like

  • Mueller Investigation ends abruptly and never comes back.
  • Nunes or someone like him goes down for Obstruction.
  • Republican supremacy continues unabated.

Basically, he's waiting for a patsy to hurl himself to the wolves for the sake of achieving an enduring victory that can only be bought with political suicide.

edited 27th May '18 12:27:41 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#243659: May 27th 2018 at 12:27:58 PM

How far does the "Speach and Debate" clause go? Does it apply only when they are actually "speaking and debating" in congress or is it more expansive than that?

From the sounds of things it covers anything in the chambers of the House or Senate.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#243660: May 27th 2018 at 12:56:36 PM

[up] Would it get in the way of nailing Obstruction charges on Nunes?

I would assume no, as much of his conduct has been outside official house channels, but I'm just not sure?

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#243661: May 27th 2018 at 1:05:13 PM

The Speech or Debate Clause names both houses, so Nunes has the same protection. That said, Speech or Debate specifically exempts "Treason, Felony and Breach of the Peace" as situations where the clause may be voided.

So Nunes could still hypothetically be picked up for Felony Obstruction if, and only if, the Department of Justice was already prepared to present such a case in a court of law and seek conviction.

We all know that it's next to impossible to arrest the President of the United States, but it's also really hard to arrest a Congressman too.

edited 27th May '18 1:08:01 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243662: May 27th 2018 at 1:07:38 PM

Obstruction of justice is intimidating or bribing witnesses, or providing false misleading information. Has Nunes done any of that?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#243663: May 27th 2018 at 1:11:25 PM

[up] I would argue he has; at least when it came to saying that Trump Tower was illegally wiretapped back in Mid-2017. The type of surveillance used on Trump's Tower wasn't wiretapping, and it was legally approved by a FISA Court.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#243664: May 27th 2018 at 1:12:06 PM

NVM

edited 27th May '18 1:12:27 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243665: May 27th 2018 at 1:21:39 PM

See, this is why I'm talking about historical presidents. The current one seems to be intentionally aiming for being a buffoon. I don't think I've seen anyone who believes in no such thing as bad publicity this much

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#243666: May 27th 2018 at 1:56:01 PM

Nah, he's just a narcissistic idiot.

i'm tired, my friend
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243667: May 27th 2018 at 1:56:52 PM

Thats not obstruction, thats just talking out your ass, which, sad to say, isnt illegal.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#243668: May 27th 2018 at 2:02:12 PM

Nunes, to my knowledge, has not crossed the line yet. He has shared information on the investigation with the White House, cited Trump as an anonymous source testifying in Trump's defense, and requested classified documentation from the investigators that he had no intention of reading in the hopes of having a pretense to take action against them, as well as issuing various statements opposing it.

But nothing that, to my knowledge, actually qualifies as obstructing in the legal sense. Trump himself has a stronger obstruction case against him, for doing things like firing James Comey and then bragging on television that he did it to kill the investigation.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#243669: May 27th 2018 at 2:09:28 PM

I wonder why he's been so quiet lately. He hasn't said a word since he went to that briefing.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243670: May 27th 2018 at 2:15:11 PM

Maybe they have something on Trump so damning even it gives even Nunes pause.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#243671: May 27th 2018 at 2:21:51 PM

Talking out your arse can be obstruction, if his intention with his lies is to influence witnesses (and that intent can be proven) than he could be done for obstruction, same if he tried to makes witnesses less willing to cooperate with the investigation.

On top of that leaking classified investigation documents to unauthorised parties is likely to violate something.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#243673: May 27th 2018 at 2:35:25 PM

[up]No, it's not, he's just this stupid.

i'm tired, my friend
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#243674: May 27th 2018 at 3:21:19 PM

I wouldn't call Trump stupid, but he absolutely has no filter.

Leviticus 19:34
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#243675: May 27th 2018 at 3:39:19 PM

No, the guy's definitely stupid. I don't know why we're arguing this.

i'm tired, my friend

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