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sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#243076: May 21st 2018 at 7:13:55 PM

I keep being reminded of a Discworld quote.

So sayeth Esmeralda "Granny" Weatherwax:

"...And that's what your holy men discuss, is it?" [asked Granny Weatherwax.]

"Not usually. There is a very interesting debate raging at the moment on the nature of sin. for example." [answered Mightily Oats.]

"And what do they think? Against it, are they?"

"It's not as simple as that. It's not a black and white issue. There are so many shades of gray."

"Nope."

"Pardon?"

"There's no grays, only white that's got grubby. I'm surprised you don't know that. And sin, young man, is when you treat people like things. Including yourself. That's what sin is."

"It's a lot more complicated than that—"

"No. It ain't. When people say things are a lot more complicated than that, they means they're getting worried that they won't like the truth. People as things, that's where it starts."

"Oh, I'm sure there are worse crimes—"

"But they starts with thinking about people as things..."

edited 21st May '18 7:14:23 PM by sgamer82

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#243077: May 21st 2018 at 7:21:58 PM

Saying you should never hate anyone is something that sounds very admirable and all, but the fact of the matter is that human beings don't really work like that for the most part. Not everyone can be an All-Loving Hero who doesn't hold anyone in contempt, and in fact while that in and of itself may be fine individually it's not reasonable to expect everyone to conform to that metric. What tends to get lost with that kind of rhetoric is there's a really big difference between hating someone who's done nothing wrong for irrational, poorly-considered reasons (like racism, sexism, etc) and hating someone for something horrible they actually did. You should never ask someone who's been deeply wronged by someone to not hate them, it's not your place.

Hatred can certainly be destructive or poisonous but you don't need to become some zen master to avoid letting it consume you.

edited 21st May '18 7:23:05 PM by Draghinazzo

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#243078: May 21st 2018 at 7:23:39 PM

[up] As I said, that press release was an attempt to legitimize Trump's "Violent Animals" remark by saying, "it's totally not racist because it was only referring to MS-13, and not all Mexicans."

If we debate it, it's succeeded.

Also, why is #Impeach Obama trending among Russian Bots?

http://dashboard.securingdemocracy.org

edited 21st May '18 7:32:01 PM by megaeliz

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#243079: May 21st 2018 at 7:52:17 PM

Saying that hatred is an evil thing that poisons you and makes you evil sounds like the kind of bullshit you'd hear on really bad and tone-deaf children's tv shows.

RabidTanker God-Mayor of Sim-Kind Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
God-Mayor of Sim-Kind
#243080: May 21st 2018 at 8:13:43 PM

@99, "Hatred is bad and will only make you evil" is something that you'll see out of Star Wars. Which might be true for certain people, but what happened to mellowing out over time or changing your opinions?

And I don't think that it's racist to call out an gang of criminals on the murders they've done if you're only talking about them and their crimes, so what's with the anti-racism vibe?

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243081: May 21st 2018 at 8:16:27 PM

Re Hate: I'm going to side with Charles on this one. Hate is like sugar—it feels good while it lasts and it's ok to indulge once in a while; but it has serious harmful long term side effects, and the more you give into it, the more self-destructive it becomes.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#243082: May 21st 2018 at 8:22:02 PM

Plus, if you hate something, and you end up acting on that hate in some way, then it's likely not a proportionate response or one that you want to indulge.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#243083: May 21st 2018 at 8:22:05 PM

And I don't think that it's racist to call out an gang of criminals on the murders they've done if you're only talking about them and their crimes, so what's with the anti-racism vibe?

The problem is - as has repeatedly been stated by multiple posters - dehumanizing them by calling them "animals".

i'm tired, my friend
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#243084: May 21st 2018 at 8:23:23 PM

And plus, things like this are rarely just taken to be referring to the gang members in question. To the people Trump is looking to reach, you can just cross out "MS-13" and replace it with "Mexicans", and you'll see how they're actually reading it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#243085: May 21st 2018 at 8:24:06 PM

[up][up][up] The problem is if you spend all your time stewing in hatred rather than having it flare up when you see them doing shitty things. Even I don't spend all my time hating Trump.

[up] Yep. That's more or less how dogwhistles work. Same with "globalist" and "elite" — the bigots cross out those words and replace them with "Jewish people".

edited 21st May '18 8:25:13 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#243086: May 21st 2018 at 8:25:19 PM

The destructive power of Hate, exhibit A: the current Republican Party

I mean, at this point, most of their actions are driven by selfishness and vindictiveness, and hatred and fear of "the other"

edited 21st May '18 8:28:41 PM by megaeliz

Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#243087: May 21st 2018 at 8:25:25 PM

Eh... people that're prone to hatred are going to find something to hate. The important part is to hate things for the right reasons

edited 21st May '18 8:31:10 PM by Hylarn

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#243088: May 21st 2018 at 8:25:36 PM

Also, if you're still wondering about the "anti-racism vibe", considering the administration's lukewarm at best response to criminals who are white US citizens.

i'm tired, my friend
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#243089: May 21st 2018 at 8:27:24 PM

[up]x4, [up][up] Basically that. Hating something or someone doesn't automatically make you a bad person, but if you let it dominate you, that's a problem.

edited 21st May '18 8:28:34 PM by TroperOnAStickV2

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
RabidTanker God-Mayor of Sim-Kind Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
God-Mayor of Sim-Kind
#243090: May 21st 2018 at 8:28:46 PM

So what other words can the media call them without causing an shitstorm? Because calling them "criminals" sounds accurate, but I think it'll cause another problem.

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#243091: May 21st 2018 at 8:32:15 PM

[up] Easy. They can say "MS-13, A gang that smuggles narcotics", or something along those lines.

And by debating it, we're just giving Legitimacy to the White House trying to say that Trump wasn't being racist when he made "the people being deported aren't people, they're animals" remark, because he was "only referring to MS-13."

edited 21st May '18 8:39:39 PM by megaeliz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#243092: May 21st 2018 at 8:38:36 PM

The thing about the GOP's hate is that it's also an example of the "stewing in hatred" problem I brought up. It's something that has been festering for decades. Trump's win and what's happening now is the culmination of it. The GOP has let their worst aspects take control. The greed, the bigotry, the selfishness, the anti-intellectualism.

edited 21st May '18 8:40:53 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243093: May 21st 2018 at 8:41:46 PM

The fundemental problem with the WH line isnt simply that they chose to use a particular word, it's that they are attempting to highlight something that isnt really a problem for a (not so) hidden political agenda. The United States is not currently experiencing an armed invasion by MS-13, and we really dont need to change our immigration policies for that particular reason. That the WH is trying to convice people that it is supports the contention that they are really engaged in race-baiting.

edited 21st May '18 8:42:22 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#243094: May 21st 2018 at 8:44:27 PM

Hatred should be regarded as a mental illness in my opinion. It does nothing but drain energy and hinder judgement. Anything good that hatred might motivate someone to do is just as easily done without it.

Leviticus 19:34
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#243095: May 21st 2018 at 8:45:42 PM

Honestly, that just sounds like belittling what being mentally ill actually is.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#243096: May 21st 2018 at 8:47:47 PM

[up]I am speaking as a mentally ill person, I should note.

Leviticus 19:34
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#243097: May 21st 2018 at 8:48:19 PM

[up][up][up] The thing is though, telling someone they shouldn't hate anyone comes across as really tone-deaf and inconsiderate of people's feelings, especially when those people might be vulnerable groups who continuously have their opinions or feelings disregarded. Hating someone or something doesn't mean you spend all your time wallowing in it.

As it stands, it's really just a platitude a lot of people like to throw around. If someone wants to have that kind of attitude then that's fine for them, but you don't get to tell other people how they should feel.

edited 21st May '18 8:49:21 PM by Draghinazzo

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#243098: May 21st 2018 at 8:48:22 PM

[up][up][up][up]By that logic, someone who killed another person out of hatred would be able to go for an insanity plea.

Bit of a can of worms, that.

edited 21st May '18 8:49:33 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#243099: May 21st 2018 at 8:54:14 PM

[up]x6 This is a fantastic thread listing some of the actual steps we can take on immigration issues.

We need to secure our border.

Not send 800k people to countries they've never seen as adults.

Not intern children on military bases.

Not waste hard-earned tax dollars on a useless thirty-foot high concrete monument to Trump's stupidity and xenophobia.

You know how to secure the border? A path to citizenship for the people who are already here to bring an exploited underclass out of the shadows. Rationalize immigration law so those who would illegally emigrate have a smooth vetted legal path. Fund border security technology.

When the Republicans want to actually address immigration, instead of "Let's blame brown people," we're ready to talk. But until then, we're not giving them one inch. As long as they describe Hispanic friends and neighbors as "animals," they are our enemies, and we will #resist.

Right now there is political instability, economic hardship, and a lack of infrastructure to our South that is in no small part due to the United States' adventurism and corporate colonialism in Latin America. It is only going to get worse with climate change. Finally, we need to remember the single greatest factor tearing these nations apart: the massive demand for narcotics in the United States and the organized criminal production it has fostered in their own.

We have a record of thirty years of tough-on-crime, war on drugs, deportation, and border security policies. What do we have to show for it? The greatest rate of incarceration in the world, highest rate of drug usage, production, & lowest prices ever, & devastation to our south.

A true fix for the migrant crisis looks like this:

1. Acknowledging it exists. There are 30 million people here living without protection of the law, a say in governance, or a chance to respond to attacks on them in the political arena.

2. Acknowledging it poses challenges for existing communities and providing funding for initiatives to bridge those gaps. We understand how to surmount the challenges of assimilation of different nationalities because the U.S. has done it literally dozens of times before. This includes inter-faith initiatives, commercial partnership events, ESL and Spanish courses for adults free of charge at local colleges and universities, and cultural festivals. Reducing barriers is a long-term process, but it comes down to personal relationships.

3. Acknowledging the falsity that is the "war on drugs." This is not a war. Wars have beginnings, middles, and ends. Drug usage is a medical problem that has been with humanity since its birth, and will be with us until our end as a species or it is medically cured. Doing so will allow us to treat drug addicts with the only thing we know that works: rehabilitation founded in medical care.

Additionally, legal status of drugs should be brought in line with level of danger by determining Scheduling through an independent scientific panel. Doing so will allow sales of substances physicians, not politicians, determine to be safe. This will drastically lower the criminal activity in the nations to our south, starving their cartels of revenue, while directing that same money into our own coffers for drug treatment.

4. An economic, engineering, education, and law enforcement assistance program to stabilize those nations so families can build a better life without the need to uproot themselves and travel thousands of miles to an unknown land.

5. A border security program, based on smart technology, not the fantasy of an unworkable monument. A wall will not stop tunnels, drones, ladders, ropes, or bribes.

We also must understand there is a difference between smuggling, illegal immigration, and asylum seeking.

  • Smugglers bring illegal goods as well as human beings being used in the sex trade across the border. They are criminals. Full stop.
  • Illegal immigrants are those crossing primarily for economic reasons, but do not face any other peculiar hardship in their home country.
  • Asylum seekers face possible death, physical harm, or other grave danger if sent back to their home countries. The conditions for seeking asylum are spelled out under United States law. Presenting yourself at the border is a perfectly legally valid means of seeking asylum.

Finally, we should realize that a most of those here without legal permission did not hoof it across the Rio Grande, but rather arrived on a valid visa, and simply never left. Visa overstays actually outnumber illegal border crossings, comprising 2/3 of undocumented arrivals.

This point stuck out to me, as it addresses part of the very things we've been taking about here.

6. Acknowledge this is not about "illegal immigration" but about changing demographics. Border crossings are at an all time low, the population has fallen each year since 2008, yet anti-immigrant sentiment is at an all-time high, notably in areas with the least immigrants.

There is a significant segment of this country that feels something is wrong but cannot explain why. That feeling is a loss cultural supremacy, as the nation ceases to be a white majority nation. It is understandable, predictable, and has precedent that I would urge us to follow.

The Protestant Establishment of the United States controlled U.S. politics from the founding until just after World II. They opened up their institutions to wider & wider circles, promoting meritocracy diversity, until it reached the highest levels of the political order. The transition is seldom remarked upon, because it was so bloodless and seamless that we hardly noticed as entire classes of people once deemed unfit for any but the lowest labor entered Ivy League, Congress, the Pentagon, the State Department, Supreme Court, and the Presidency.

Yes, they were all "white", but they only fully became so once the White Anglo-Saxon Protestants granted them that status. We are at a point of choosing. We can fully abandon our absurd caste system, dig it up by the root, reckon with our past, and work toward discarding it. Or we can repeat the mistake of our ancestors, paper over old wounds, allowing them to fester further. Perhaps it is time for some uncomfortable conversations.

edited 21st May '18 8:59:16 PM by megaeliz

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#243100: May 21st 2018 at 8:57:40 PM

[up][up][up]I know what it's like to be mistreated and have people refuse to understand you, and I'm not saying I don't feel hatred either (I'm not perfect). Having said that, when Jesus said "love your enemy", he was talking to badly oppressed people. You can have an enemy without hatred, and you can oppose evil without hatred, but hatred is itself the evil to oppose.

Leviticus 19:34

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