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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#243026: May 21st 2018 at 3:32:02 PM

[up][up][up]Requiring workers to comply with strike actions...mmmno. If you can't get enough workers to agree with the strike that they'll be able to weaken or shut down the company if they collectively strike, then you have no business calling a strike. Besides, I'd think that if over half of the employees of any business agree to walk out, that business is shutting down right then.

As for cooperating with collective bargaining, the responsibility there is on the union to get the employer to abide by decisions made by collective bargaining, such as the union shop, seniority rules and standard contracts. (Which isn't usually too difficult, unless you're dealing with Wal-Mart or other Evil, Inc. employers.)

edited 21st May '18 3:33:38 PM by Ramidel

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#243027: May 21st 2018 at 3:32:43 PM

I repeat: dehumanizing anyone is bad because it deludes you into thinking that you are inherently superior and incapable of being as bad as them.

edited 21st May '18 3:33:09 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#243028: May 21st 2018 at 3:37:19 PM

The people who need to put down others to raise themselves have forgotten where they have placed morality.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#243029: May 21st 2018 at 3:37:29 PM

That press release has been getting a lot of coverage today, and I'm convinced it's a trick. They're waiting for the inevitable "MS-13 isn't that bad/that much of a threat/worse than us" thinkpieces so they can claim the left is soft on crime. It wouldn't be the first time they've done that.

They should have sent a poet.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#243030: May 21st 2018 at 3:47:24 PM

Sometimes you only need a skeleton crew to keep open, and if you can keep open without losing too much because of a strike, it nullifies the threat. "It's only a few people" is all you need to start curtailing any effect it has on some industries.

Ditto the collective bargaining. The employer could offer SLIGHTLY better rates or terms if people agree to not abide by union decisions and keep working and dismantle it that way.

Also, free rider problem. There's a critical mass where people that won't care enough just take the whole situation apart.

Greed, apathy, naked self interest and not wanting to pay... no, de-fanging unions because "workers' rights" is the first step to eliminating any rights. What's good for someone in the obvious short term is not necessarily good long term. Especially if it works to harm others.

edited 21st May '18 3:49:21 PM by RainehDaze

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#243031: May 21st 2018 at 3:57:13 PM

Well, as I said, free-riding is taken care of by the mandatory union dues. And other than strikes, what "union decisions" would the other workers not be abiding by?

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#243032: May 21st 2018 at 4:03:13 PM

Mandatory dues will stop mattering if you remove all the power the union has.

And the other main one is collective bargaining only works if the people the company hires ALSO get bound to these contracts.

Which is vastly harder to enforce if the union can't MAKE people strike or have a say in who's employed.

What good is going on strike if they can just hire other people?

rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#243033: May 21st 2018 at 4:06:13 PM

In more silly news:

At Yale commencement, Hillary Clinton tweaks Trump with Russian hat:

Hillary Clinton returned to Yale University this weekend, warning the graduating class of the "tumultuous times" that await them and using the school's tradition of over-the-top headwear to rib President Donald Trump with her own unusual hat: a Russian fur cap.

The audience laughed as she held up the hat and said, "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em."

Clinton said she's concerned about the country's political polarization but believes the current crop of graduates is prepared to rise to the challenge.

She also spoke a bit more seriously about her loss in the 2016 presidential campaign, saying, "Let me just get this out of the way. No, I'm not over it. I still think about the 2016 election. I still regret the mistakes I made. I still think, though, that understanding what happened in such a weird and wild election in American history will help us defend our democracy in the future."

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#243034: May 21st 2018 at 4:37:02 PM

[up][up]For the former, usually what happens is that the employer is bound to rules regarding pay, seniority and working conditions specified in the union's contract, which in turn binds any employees he wants to hire. If the employer doesn't abide by these requirements, they've breached a contract and should be liable in court. (Unless the court is the Supreme Court under Republican domination, but that's true of any law.)

For the latter, there are generally regulations (not negotiated by the union, written into legislation) against hiring strikebreakers, particularly for non-economic strikes such as unfair labor practices (which shouldn't be a strike issue at all, by the way, it should be an issue where the employer is compelled to fix that by the lawyers). Furthermore, again, the union contract can and usually does prevent pay undercuts like the kind you're suggesting.

Bottom line, compulsory strikes and union authority over hiring infringe on both employer and employee rights, and the venue for most of the issues you raise should be the courts rather than the picket line.

edited 21st May '18 4:37:26 PM by Ramidel

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#243035: May 21st 2018 at 4:52:44 PM

@Pushover Media Critic: I see nothing wrong with specific dehumanization. I know I'll never be as bad as ISIS members who kill innocents for not conforming to their sect and take girls for sex slaves.

Life is unfair...
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243036: May 21st 2018 at 4:54:02 PM

[up]

I see nothing wrong with specific dehumanization.

Excuse me?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#243037: May 21st 2018 at 5:00:31 PM

Yeah, you don't need to dehumanize anyone for that. Thinking that committing such atrocities aren't also a part of human nature, is naïve and dangerous.

edited 21st May '18 5:04:11 PM by LSBK

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#243038: May 21st 2018 at 5:02:47 PM

"Specific dehumanization"? What the everloving fuck?

Do not obey in advance.
RabidTanker God-Mayor of Sim-Kind Since: May, 2014 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
God-Mayor of Sim-Kind
#243039: May 21st 2018 at 5:11:13 PM

If dehumanization of ISIS is involved, than it's justified. If not, I need to find a new forum.

Answer no master, never the slave Carry your dreams down into the grave Every heart, like every soul, equal to break
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#243040: May 21st 2018 at 5:13:07 PM

[up]Dehumanization is never justified. I think Trump is an incompetent moron and that the GOP are scum of the Earth, but you don't see me calling them animals.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#243041: May 21st 2018 at 5:14:24 PM

Humans are humans. Saying that some humans aren't humans just because of their actions is a species-wide example of the No True Scotsman fallacy.

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#243042: May 21st 2018 at 5:15:51 PM

[up]Agreed.

Do not obey in advance.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#243043: May 21st 2018 at 5:19:27 PM

Call them criminals and gang members, and detail their crimes. Anyone with a remotely functional moral compass will agree that groups like MS-13 are dangerous and need to be brought to justice.

Oh wait, that wouldn't drum up the racist sentiment that Trump lives and dies on. When they say animals, they mean immigrants/Hispanics.

edited 21st May '18 5:20:23 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#243044: May 21st 2018 at 5:24:23 PM

I don't think there's anything different if you call a person an animal versus saying you hate them.

Hatred is hatred and arguing over the terminology does nothing.

If you don't attack the hate, it's a meaningless gesture.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#243045: May 21st 2018 at 5:27:37 PM

No, it's okay to hate some people. It is not okay to say that those people aren't people.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#243046: May 21st 2018 at 5:30:53 PM

That is a terrible sentiment.

Call a person inhuman or a monster all you want but don't hate them.

Hate is evil.

edited 21st May '18 5:31:04 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#243047: May 21st 2018 at 5:32:21 PM

No, some things and people deserve to be hated. You can hate someone without acting as if they aren't a person.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#243048: May 21st 2018 at 5:33:00 PM

No.you can hate them,hardly unfair considering what they are and what they do

edit:They're terrorists,murderous thugs,I want to use more words bet I feel it would get me thumped

edited 21st May '18 5:33:53 PM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#243049: May 21st 2018 at 5:39:58 PM

Call a person inhuman or a monster all you want but don't hate them.

Seems to me those two sentiments are mutually exclusive. The one naturally incorporates the other. Righteous indignation just doesn't cut it if you go so far as to label someone an inhuman monster.

edited 21st May '18 5:41:24 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#243050: May 21st 2018 at 5:58:57 PM

Some people do such horrible things that they're deserving of hate. That doesn't mean that they aren't people and saying they aren't conveniently excludes you from having to admit that you are just as fallible as they are and capable of the same horrible actions.

Hatred means that you find what they did incredibly reprehensible and you vow not to be the kind of person they are. Dehumanization means that you find what they did incredibly reprehensible and you breathe a sigh of relief that you don't have to worry about ever doing what they did because you're better and different than they are.


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