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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#242926: May 20th 2018 at 12:38:49 PM

The only one that surprises me there is the golfing trips. How does it cost that much money?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242927: May 20th 2018 at 12:41:04 PM

[up][up] The increasing likelihood of seeing Trump impeached and ejected from office: Priceless.

[up][up][up] Maybe he thinks the Dow Jones is out to get him.

edited 20th May '18 12:41:51 PM by sgamer82

Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#242928: May 20th 2018 at 12:43:15 PM

>The only one that surprises me there is the golfing trips. How does it cost that much money?

it's replacing all the golf balls after he keeps losing them

Seriously though,it's probably to do with venue and the security involved

edited 20th May '18 12:43:42 PM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242929: May 20th 2018 at 12:47:24 PM

[up] An estimate from April 2017, put it at 3.6 billion.

As politifact, pointed out; we have no way to know for sure, but that is a reasonable estimate, and it's been more than a year since then.

edited 20th May '18 12:47:42 PM by megaeliz

Imca (Veteran)
#242930: May 20th 2018 at 1:41:32 PM

he exit poll discrepancies for the US election are way past the "Voting machines most likely hacked" point. Seriously.

Please go read up on how an EVM works, please, this is nothing but anti-science fear mongering, the machines are almost impossible to hack, and way more secure then paper ballot could ever hope to be.

The insides of the machines are physically locked up, requiring either brute force or the key to crack open, the code used on the machine isn't even known by the manufacturer, the only way to get the code is to break into the physical machine and rip the chip out to read off it.

Now assuming you do all this and you want to hack it, you then have to break into the machine because they are not connected to any network and the internet requiring physical access, and re-sodder the chips with a new chip that is going to show up to any one who looks, because the data on the chip cant be edited it is read only.

Any attempt to mess with EVMs is so complicated and requires skills and manufacturing equipment that no average person could do it, yet the requirement for physical access to each of the thousands of machines prevents any government from doing it.

Computers done properly can be very secure, the thing you are always taught working cyber security is your bigest risk is never them, but the people using them.

What actually happened is exit polls are unreliable because voting for Trump was still not something you would wave out in the open back then, because being a racist, sexist, fraud of an asshole was still a bad thing.

The only one that surprises me there is the golfing trips. How does it cost that much money?

The secret service mostly, security runs about 2,000,000 a visit last I heard.

edited 20th May '18 1:47:08 PM by Imca

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#242931: May 20th 2018 at 1:44:31 PM

Where are we getting the numbers for the Russia investigation? I don't doubt it's much lower than what Trump claims, if for no other reason than he arbitrarily doubled his claim of the cost from a few days ago, but I'd like to see some reliable source.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242932: May 20th 2018 at 2:17:52 PM

I'm not sure of the exact numbers, but I do know it's actually been incredibly low, for this type of case.

It's amazing how ruthlessly efficient this entire investigation has been.

Edit: In December 2017, it had cost about $7 million, but I'll see if I can find any more recent figures. Big investigations like this tend rack up big costs. [1]

edited 20th May '18 2:42:07 PM by megaeliz

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#242933: May 20th 2018 at 2:39:05 PM

[up][up][up]

Every single EVM security professionals have ever investigated was trivial to compromise. Without exception. Mostly, this is a joke because the machines are old, and not patched, but there are no voting machines for sale that are even remotely secure.

Scalable hacks - that is, hacks that change the count on more than one machine you are physically in the room with, are more difficult, but by no means impossible.

You can, for example write a worm that spreads via the data medium used to collect the vote results, or hack the system of the people doing maintenance on the machines and include a little extra with the file that tells the machine the list of candidates for the upcoming election, or any of a dozen other methods.

Also.. Try a basic sanity check here. Do you really think that the people who manufacture americas voting machines are more paranoid and better at info-sec than the people running the Iranian nuclear program? Stucknet happened. Russia is really, really good at cyber war.

And, as I said, the exit poll discrepancies are very, very unlikely to be innocent. That is not my opinion. That is entirely the standard way to decide if an election is fraudulent. If the exit polls are way off, that is routinely considered proof of foul play. And the US exit polls stink to high heaven.

.... Also, given that we know for a fact that Russia was hacking into election roll databases and related systems.. Uhm, why on earth do you believe they would not attempt to subvert the count directly? Russia has rigged every single of its own elections for more than a decade. Overtly. Blatantly. No respect for their own votes at all, why would they refrain from taking the direct path to the goal they obviously was working towards?

edited 20th May '18 2:48:29 PM by Izeinsummer

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242934: May 20th 2018 at 2:43:35 PM

People believe in Trump.

Because we believe in The Purge.

We can make it happen.

:)

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242935: May 20th 2018 at 2:48:43 PM

Here you go.

•Cost of Iran-Contra Investigation: 8 Years & $49M

•Cost of Whitewater Investigation: 4 Years & $80M

•Cost of overall Bengazi Investigation: 3 Years & $10M*

•Cost of Mueller Investigation (to Date): 1 Year & $6.7M

  • Source: US GEO (All costs NOT adjusted for Inflation)

If someone wants to adjust these for inflation, that would be wonderful.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#242936: May 20th 2018 at 3:02:33 PM

The only one that surprises me there is the golfing trips. How does it cost that much money?

He plays at his own resort and consequentially pays himself for each game.

So, you tell me.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#242937: May 20th 2018 at 3:18:41 PM

Cost of security detail, both from USSS and local LE Os.

Cost of flying him from Andrews to whatever airport in Florida and back every single weekend.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Imca (Veteran)
#242938: May 20th 2018 at 3:38:36 PM

The problem is you can do neither, the data the programing of the machine is engraved into the Silicon of the chip, they have not been patched because editing the machine or making it load forigen data is imposible, you have to print new chips and replace them on the motherboard, which is also what makes scalable attacks not work.

Fear of EVMS being hacked is nothing more thrn anti science on the same level of vaccines causing autisim, good comte security works, and it works well..... which is why most hackers work on phishing.

Also Iran's nuclear program was hacked with physical access, because the target was centralized, and not read only, both of which are untrue about EVMS

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#242939: May 20th 2018 at 4:08:43 PM

Re: inflation adjusted costs:

•Cost of Iran-Contra Investigation: 8 Years & $49M. In 2018, this would be $114M

•Cost of Whitewater Investigation: 4 Years & $80M. In 2018, this would be $135M

•Cost of overall Bengazi Investigation: 3 Years & $10M*. In 2018, this would be $10.7M

•Cost of Mueller Investigation (to Date): 1 Year & $6.7M. In 2018, this is $6.841M

Source: US GEO. I calculated the inflation adjustments here.

edited 20th May '18 4:10:02 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#242940: May 20th 2018 at 4:15:26 PM

[up][up]I think I'd like to see sources for that considering it doesn't quite gel with my understanding of how voting machines work. Mainly because ROM-loaded software isn't normally all that common.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#242941: May 20th 2018 at 4:55:10 PM

Defcon burned through every machine they got their hands on. Every time outside experts get their hands on one, they cry. Seriously, they are not secure.

And here is the thing. Putin has apparently spent fairly serious money backing Trump. A tiger team to go after the hardware would cost a lot less money and be lower profile than the social media spend or the email hacks. Hacking the DNC is only useful if you go overt with the info you find, after all - it inherently reveals you are acting. Going after the machines can have a very, very small footprint in the US, and a very contained one in Russia. Its a safer op than things we know for a fact they did do.

...

...... Hmmm. Nah, rigging the next us election in favor of the pirate party would be wrong. Tough it would probably get people to stop trusting the machines..

edited 20th May '18 5:11:08 PM by Izeinsummer

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#242942: May 20th 2018 at 5:04:46 PM

So not only is Mueller's investigation less expensive so far, compared to the Bengahzi investigation, it's produced way more results.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#242945: May 20th 2018 at 5:27:17 PM

It's impossible to hack a voting machine. The OS they run is too primitive and it's a completely closed system.

There is literally no wireless input whatsoever and the OS is a black box. There's no way to fuck with it without having physical access to the machine.

So unless we get GRU agents sneaking into the country and then sneaking into the nation's courthouses in every county in every state and taking a crowbar to the machines, all of which are under physical guard, we're not at risk of "hacking."

edited 20th May '18 5:27:31 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#242946: May 20th 2018 at 5:29:21 PM

This thread has been kind of jumpy over whether using voting machines makes less sense than paper ballots or not.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#242947: May 20th 2018 at 6:10:14 PM

Isn’t the risk with voting machines that they still have to be connected to a devise that might not be secure. So a GRU agent doesn’t have to hack the machine, they just have to trick their way into the PC of some local election official, then when said local election official programs the machine a preset program can hop across.

At some point someone has to tell the machine a bunch of things (like who the candidates are), and that’s when there’s a risk of compromise, because the person programming the machine may do it by connecting the machine to a pre-compromised system.

edited 20th May '18 6:11:38 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242948: May 20th 2018 at 6:20:05 PM

The actual machines that voters use to record their selections probably are not the main vulnerability. That would be the management software installed on the computers that are used to tally all the votes-these are located at each county clerk's office, and generally are connected to the internet (so that the software vendor can install updates and engage in other remote administration activities).

Every article I found more or less says the same thing:

Want to hack a voting machine? Hack the voting machine vendor first

Just to be clear, the voting machines themselves are vulnerable, apparently the white-hat hackers at Defcon have been hacking voting machines for years. See also here. It's just that it would be challenging, to say the least, to influence a national election by hacking individual voting machines (although local elections might be feasible). Here is a copy of Defcon 2017's final report on the voting machine project. It makes sobering reading.

But as I said, the real vulnerability is in the back end machines used to handle the vote count. Those are the very same systems targeted by the Russian attempt to hack state level offices.

I don't know of any evidence suggesting that hacking changed the election results. But I think it's clear that this is a real problem and should be taken seriously.

After all, you can bet that every authoritarian state in the world right now, including Russia, China and North Korea, is trying to find a way to influence our elections. 2018 could be a real clusterf&%k, it we're not careful.

edited 20th May '18 6:21:40 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242949: May 20th 2018 at 7:05:28 PM

[up]x6 As I said, everything about this investigation has been ruthlessly efficient.

[up]x5 that's what Guiliani says at least. Who knows if it's actually true.

edited 20th May '18 9:00:27 PM by megaeliz

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242950: May 20th 2018 at 10:03:12 PM

Rod Rosenstein made a statement tonight, presumably responding to Trump's tweets

The Deputy Attorney General issued the following statement tonight: “If anyone did infiltrate or surveil participants in a presidential campaign for inappropriate purposes, we need to know about it and take appropriate action.” [1]

This is actually a very good reaponse on his part. It's obviously carefully worded to address the question at first glace, but is generic to the point of meaninglessness on further examination. Note the use of the words "if" and "inappropriate purposes"

This appears to be Rosenstein’s attempt to diffuse the situation and sidestep a major crisis. He reportedly directed the Justice Department’s Inspector General to investigate. We should expect a report months later indicating no wrongdoing.


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