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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242876: May 19th 2018 at 10:13:32 PM

[up] I'm not sure that addresses what LSBK was saying about the Democrats being nowhere near as corrupt as the Republicans, nor that the Republicans' election into office was the exact steps needed to address any issues, real or imagined.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242877: May 19th 2018 at 10:45:57 PM

That's a bit like saying water is wet, isn't it?

The disgust with the two parties was legitimate but I don't see any reason to argue with the idea Trump has made it much worse and allied intensely with the Republicans he claimed to be an outsider to.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242878: May 19th 2018 at 10:54:53 PM

I think a case could be made for Trump's influence making things worse in the Republican side. Or, if not actually worse, then at least much more blatant.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#242879: May 19th 2018 at 11:03:57 PM

I’m not sure how the disgust with the Democrats was legitimate, the disgust was either factually inaccurate (democrats being blamed for doing things republicans did or for not doing things republicans stoped them doing) or immoral (people being disgusted with democrats for not abusing minorities and women as much as they’d like).

There are legitimate reasons to oppose many policies of the Democratic Party, but nobody who has a good reason to oppose bad dem policies voted for Trump, because anyone smart enough to understand the actual failings of the Dems is also smart enough to not vote for Trump.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242880: May 19th 2018 at 11:08:46 PM

Drone Warfare, keeping Guantanamo Bay open, continuing the policies of the Bush Administration, 3 Strikes your Out, NAFTA, mandatory sentencing for drug offenses, silence on the Russian invasion of Crimea, the weakness of the treatment post-2008 bailout

Call me crazy.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#242881: May 19th 2018 at 11:10:40 PM

See now, even if a lot of that is genuinely worth opposing, you'd have to be horribly informed/not paying attention to think that Trump wouldn't just make them all worse.

edited 19th May '18 11:11:01 PM by LSBK

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242882: May 19th 2018 at 11:11:44 PM

Trump voters are a mix of malice and ignorance. Much like Trump himself.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#242883: May 19th 2018 at 11:17:46 PM

Drone Warfare, keeping Guantanamo Bay open, continuing the policies of the Bush Administration, 3 Strikes your Out, NAFTA, mandatory sentencing for drug offenses, silence on the Russian invasion of Crimea, the weakness of the treatment post-2008 bailout

  • A legit problem (assuming you mean extrajudicial killings with high civilian casualties by the CIA, rather than some anti-science fear of drones) but one that was neither endemic to the party nor a reason to vote for Trump.
  • The fault of Republicans.
  • Vague nothingness lacking specifics.
  • I’m not certain but I’d guess that any movement if this was blocked by Republicans.
  • Not an actual problem.
  • Something Obama was activity adressing.
  • Not how events actully happened.
  • The fault of Republicans.

Care to try again? You identified one legit issue that the Dems can be blamed for, and I can promise you that Trump didn’t win because people were upset about Obama’s use of drones.

edited 19th May '18 11:20:33 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#242884: May 19th 2018 at 11:32:38 PM

Even then, none of that is "corruption;" it's just things you don't like.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242885: May 19th 2018 at 11:33:34 PM

[up] This.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#242886: May 19th 2018 at 11:33:55 PM

The advantage of "I'm an outsider, rarr!" is that you can avoid being tainted with the stuff (such as CIA extrajudicial killings) that both parties support or permit and neither is willing to do a damn thing about. You can run against your own party's shortcomings because you've never been part of the compromises and backdoor deals that make governmental sausage.

I'll agree that the Democratic Party is corrupt, based on my own experience at the state convention and the shady tactics they used to prevent debate on the platform - that bunch were absolutely part of the Democratic Party of Dianne Wasserman Schulz. But turning to a Republican to fight corruption is ridiculous.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242887: May 19th 2018 at 11:43:00 PM

Do I have to support Trump if I dislike the way Democrats handle things? Is that the kind of argument we're reduced to?

And Trump benefited from his isolationist approach to at least some Americans. A lot of people opposed interventionalism and while I think there's a lot of obligations the United States is required to meet (which many Trump voters can't), that has been a point of Trump.

edited 19th May '18 11:44:21 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#242888: May 19th 2018 at 11:49:58 PM

[up]You originally made a statement implying people chose to support Trump because of the corruption within the Obama administration. This is a questionable assertion for several reasons, not the least of which is the fact that it probably applies to a very small amount of Trump voters. The most you could say is that people had a vaguely defined antipathy towards "the establishment" or conventional politics, which they chose to express by supporting Trump, but that's hardly the same thing.

The specific kind of complaints you're talking about are much more liable to matter to people from the fringe-left, which is not a particularly large or significant voting block and if anything they'd choose to not vote at all or go third party than vote for Trump.

edited 19th May '18 11:54:19 PM by Draghinazzo

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#242889: May 20th 2018 at 12:14:09 AM

I'm pretty sure that lots of people who voted for Trump didn't think he was honest; that's was the whole point of the "take him seriously, but not literally" meme. There was a lot of convoluted logic such as "Trump doesn't actually support building a wall; he just cares about border security and getting tougher on criminal immigrants."

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242890: May 20th 2018 at 12:18:51 AM

Generally, people who assumed the entire political system was blown was the fact they were unsatisfied with both parties platforms.

The Republican serving corporations The Democratic paying insufficient attention to home needs.

I don't agree with the latter but I think it's a view that had a lot of mileage after the 2008 bailouts.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#242891: May 20th 2018 at 12:25:21 AM

@Charles, you listed specific things that you disliked and Silas pointed out the problems with your arguments. That's not reducing the argument to anything, it's addressing what you actually said. And he even admitted that you had a point with the first one. And then he pointed out that hey, a lot of the other things you said were either misattributed in blame, or just not actually addressing anything.

Hell, Obama DID try to close Guantanamo, and ran right into Republican obstructionism and general NIMBY sentiment, because those prisoners were going to have to be housed somewhere if they weren't going to be released. "Continuing policies of the Bush administration" is genuinely to vague to be useful, and says nothing about what Bush policies you object to. The bail out was the best he could do under the circumstances, and with Republicans being the way they were I'm not sure what you think would have been better for him to do. Crimea was a massively complicated situation to respond to, and Obama did what he could, which was apparently mostly sanctions. It's not like the US had troops or much of a relationship with the Ukraine that would have justified some other magical action. Again, I have to question what you thought he could have done that wouldn't have been mostly symbolic.

So yeah, that's not exactly saying "you have to support Trump if you don't like how the Democrats do things", that's pointing out what appear to be flaws in your argument. Don't put words in our mouths, because that's not what Silas said at fucking all.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242892: May 20th 2018 at 1:26:32 AM

Okay, fair enough, I'm convinced.

One bit of good news, OUR TRADE WAR IS OVER...I guess?

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/china-us-agree-to-abandon-trade-war-beijing

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Imca (Veteran)
#242893: May 20th 2018 at 2:59:28 AM

When about will the Democrats begin seriously discussing presidential canidates? Next year? Or the year after?

DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#242894: May 20th 2018 at 4:41:33 AM

On the subject of "why vote for trump", this isn't entirely a US thing. Brexit and Corbyn in the UK share many of the same motivating causes, as do Af D/Die Linke in Germany, the National Front in France, Syriza in Greece and most of Italy's politics full stop.

No median wage rise worth a damn in four decades because there's no union power or governments that care, job losses as all the old (and outdated) industries close down, steady outsourcing of all the jobs there are and the steady stream of news that everyone in a service job is about to be replaced with a beep boop. Yes, unemployment's gone down, but most of that growth is in terrible service jobs and the extent of the problem is usually disguised by leaving the long-term unemployed off the stats. There's barely any inflation to eat debts, too, so anyone who took any kind of big economic bet on the "Great Moderation" isn't seeing any help any time soon.

Couple that with a downright hostile media that paints anyone offering a left-wing alternative as a commie nazi traitor jihadi ect. so you only see the centrist milquetoast ones and the population very rapidly comes to the conclusion that everyone in the top 20% who's making all the grand proclamations is a lying bastard. Along comes Trump, who's an obvious bullshit artist, but at least he actually comes to where you live and seems to get that you've been screwed for the last quarter century, so hey, potentially an upside there and the other side is offering me absolutely nothing you care about.

Same with Brexit. The Leavers didn't sit down and spend a few hours reading up on international trade before deciding that an independent tariff policy would allow Britain to promote such-and-such an industry and that was worth some short-term import channel inflation, they just wanted to shout SCREW YOU as loud as physically possible at everyone proclaiming glorious prosperity is just around the corner, and that fell in nicely with the more unpleasant racist populists. The hard-left and hard-right European parties are generally rather europhobic. The Right blames immigrants and globalization, the left blames corporations and globalization. The American and British people aren't wrong to be angry, they're just angry at the wrong things.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#242895: May 20th 2018 at 5:05:03 AM

[up][up]After midterms, which is what the focus is on right now.

i'm tired, my friend
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#242896: May 20th 2018 at 5:46:47 AM

And the simple fact, that a xenophobic rapist, was seen as a better candidate then a qualified woman with a life time of political experience behind her that the election was that close, that him winning was ever a posibility.... says every thing that needs to be said about America right at the moment.

You're ignoring the impact of almost 45 years worth of targeted smear campaigns.

Same with Brexit. The Leavers didn't sit down and spend a few hours reading up on international trade before deciding that an independent tariff policy would allow Britain to promote such-and-such an industry and that was worth some short-term import channel inflation, they just wanted to shout SCREW YOU as loud as physically possible at everyone proclaiming glorious prosperity is just around the corner, and that fell in nicely with the more unpleasant racist populists.

The same campaign organisations worked for both Brexit and Trump. It was the same campaign.

Brexit has been a campaign for over forty years.

In the 1970s, there was a vote to join the EEC. All age-groups voted in favour of it, except one. The 18-24 years were extremely anti-Europe. They had a different mentality towards Europe than the generations that came before them (their parents and grandparents, who favoured closer ties).

In 2016, the Brexit vote was driven and dominated by the Baby Boomers, who turned out to have a different attitude towards Europe than all generations who came after them (their children and grandchildren).

Notice the common thread. The 18-24 year olds who were anti-Europe in the 1970s are the very same Baby Boomers who were anti-Europe in 2016.

For some reason, this generation is the most anti-Europe generation we know: they are more anti-Europe than either their parents and grandparents or their children and grandchildren.

However, in the 1970s, they were the young adults who had no power in the country. Today, they are both the people in charge of the country and the biggest voting block in elections.

The anti-Europe lobby groups realised this back in the 1970s, after a referendum result they didn't support. They made a deliberate (and quite quite public) decision to begin to working on the electorate to change minds in preparation for a future referendum. At the same time, their leaders began to pressure successive prime ministers to hold another referendum. In Leveson Inquiry, John Major spoke a little bit about this pressure: almost the first thing he had to do upon becoming prime minister was meet with Murdoch who put pressure on him to hold a referendum.

The only prime minister who caved in to the pressure was David Cameron, which is why the referendum happened. At that point, the Brexit campaign had built up 40 years of anti-Europe narrative for the electorate to swallow, and the anti-Europe generation was now in charge in the vote.

The narrative keeps being presented as how could Brexit have won. The truth is, Brexit had this bagged from the start — it's a testimony to the resilience of the electorate to generations of manipulation that Remain (with only four months in which to act) managed to make the Brexit result so close.

That situation is similar to the 2016 presidential election, except that you need to replace Europe with Hilary Clinton. It's a testimony to the resilience of the electorate to generations of manipulation that she managed to win the popular vote at all.

edited 20th May '18 6:06:15 AM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
DeathorCake Since: Mar, 2016
#242897: May 20th 2018 at 6:55:17 AM

[up]

It wasn't exactly some grand consipiracy, unless you posit that a bunch of uni students hashed all this out in the seventies. They just never stopped making their case, and eventually they got all the power. Trump burst onto the stage from nowhere, although admittedly the republicans had spent thirty years laying out a welcome mat and radicalising their base for him to take over.

It's not like there aren't good reasons to dislike the EU and Brexit won't exactly destroy the country, the EU has been negatively disposed to or actively hostile to democracy for years. The benefits of EU membership take considerably more explaining than the drawbacks. Will be hard to fix this, since millennials and Gen Z don't vote as a rule, and any actually left-wing politicians who might inspire them face some pretty dramatic opposition from their own party. How many challenges has Corbyn fended off now? Slightly worried it might take another Minskyesque crash to change the system to any reasonable degree, but that might just break everything.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#242898: May 20th 2018 at 7:32:16 AM

[up]They never said that it was a grand conspiracy, just that there was pressure for a referendum and a specific generation was uniquely anti-Europe. Both of which are factually true.

Also while Brexit won't literally destroy the UK that's a rather worthless statement, Brexit is clearly and objectively hurting the UK's positions deeply and is the nationstate equivalent of shooting yourself in the face. It's possible to survive but you're going to suffer unimaginably and be in a much worse position.

Also this discussion isn't really on-topic anymore.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242899: May 20th 2018 at 7:52:08 AM

[up] But was that group large enough to actually vote yes on it's own?

Brexit was supported by the exact same malicious actors who interfeared in the US presidential election. (See Russia and Cambrige Analytica, and probably others).

This vote was stolen just as much as ours was.

edited 20th May '18 9:00:52 AM by megaeliz

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242900: May 20th 2018 at 8:06:08 AM

I'll say it then, there was and is a grand conspiracy, by certain members of the billionaire class, to use populist resentments as a political vehicle for giving themselves a lighter tax burden and removing government regulation from their industries. Among other things, they funded a propaganda machine that has churned out hate messages for two generations, virtually unopposed.

Come on people, the Koch brothers, Rupert Murdoch's and Vladimir Putins of the world may not be meeting in a smoke filled room somewhere, but they understand each other perfectly. Their goals and methods are carefully aligned, and none of this (Trump, Brexit, etc.) is happening now by mere chance.

edited 20th May '18 8:06:36 AM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.

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