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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242451: May 15th 2018 at 5:48:56 PM

So North Korea is suspending peace talks?

Guess the Iran Deal being ripped up made them wary of Trump.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#242452: May 15th 2018 at 5:51:17 PM

@Tobias: That's a reasonable view to hold... in a discussion in public. But this forum's fairly insular, and we're not exactly the Democrats' first point of contact with rural ex-Trump voters. Let people vent some of their entirely understandable schadenfreude; we shouldn't demand that people have to hold the perfect bearing at all times in order to deserve to win the hearts and minds of disaffected Trump voters.

It's been fun.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#242453: May 15th 2018 at 6:20:52 PM

This is a discussion in public. The internet is a public space. This thread is read not only by those of us who participate in the discussion but also countless lurkers.

Further, the "insular" nature of the dialogue makes our behavior here even more important. Those lurkers come here to see how people "really" think, away from the rigmarole of political discourse. Twitter, Facebook, 4chan, Reddit, Tumblr, etc. are considered more personal places where you can get a measure of a person or group's "true thoughts", as it were.

Again: we hold this against Trump all the time. In his speech, he might say that we are working diligently with Mexico to pursue some sort of compromise on important issues of border security, but then he'll go on a six-post Twitter rampage about how Democrats are enabling Mexican rapists and drug dealers to murder your children. Which one do we take as Trump's real opinions? We'll pick the informal post from social media every time.

Likewise, how many times have we picked out something said on Reddit as indicative of the Alt-Right as a whole? When they try to be presentable in public, we turn to the things they say on social media for proof of what they really think. There's a whole website that Ambar likes to link from time to time that documents the worst of the worst from the Alt-Right movement.

They do that to us too. I have personally seen my own posts from this very thread reposted on other sites as opposition research. I've found threads in groups like AVFM group-thinking discussion points to try and advance their agenda in these conversations. Once, I even found several blog entries dedicated to how much a person despises me, personally for being a Feminazi SJW Libtard. It's well-known that we tend to lean Left, and that means that people look to us to get an idea of what the Left "really thinks" outside of politicians given calculated speeches.

edited 15th May '18 6:23:09 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242454: May 15th 2018 at 6:25:00 PM

Not saying I don't believe you Tobias, but I'm legitimately surprised by the idea that anything in our random little corner of the internet in general, nevermind one poster in particular, is definable as "opposition research"... Whose the opposition in that scenario...

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#242455: May 15th 2018 at 6:27:14 PM

Not that this is an important line of question in general, but isn't the talk about this thread, lurkers and other sites running the risk of drama importation/discussion?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#242456: May 15th 2018 at 6:29:02 PM

Who it is would be better left unsaid. No need to import drama.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#242457: May 15th 2018 at 6:29:35 PM

[up][up][up][up]Yes this is a discussion in public, but it's not an especially important one. Thus I see zero reason to believe that anything said here will have a significant effect on American politics, which suggests that your argument that we should not display schadenfreude or a lack of sympathy is nonsensical.

My amusement at the people stupid enough to vote for Trump receiving proper consequences is not going to convince any serious number of people to vote harder for Trump and thus I feel perfectly comfortable expressing it.

edited 15th May '18 6:30:02 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242458: May 15th 2018 at 6:30:16 PM

Also, nobody was going "You guys are useless dumbf*ck idiots who deserve what you get. AHAHAHA the Democrats laugh at your suffering! My party sincerely hopes you dipshits rot in Hell!"

The one poster who said that they were feeling good about Trump voters getting screwed by their own guy immediately had multiple people replying to him saying we should take this opportunity to swing those voters rather than rub their faces in it.

They should have sent a poet.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242459: May 15th 2018 at 6:30:45 PM

To change gears a bit, and maybe promote some optimism:

Ada County printing more Democratic ballots due to high turnout

http://www.idahostatesman.com/latest-news/article211167809.html

Incidentally, Ada County is my county, or has been since last November. Before that it was Canyon County, also mentioned in the article. I live about a block or two away from the polling place I went to today.

edited 15th May '18 6:36:43 PM by sgamer82

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242460: May 15th 2018 at 6:36:45 PM

http://www.startribune.com/the-latest-fed-agency-says-it-lost-track-of-migrant-kids/480986621/

Apparently Trump's policy of always separating immigrant children from their families, and then not funding the organizations meant to track the children has resulted in almost 1500 children of immigrants having been completely lost by the government. Oh, and the senate subcommittee investigating that fiasco has concluded that some of this is because the people signed up to get free children from the government were human traffickers looking for stock.

This....it's worse because it's an older article.

edited 15th May '18 6:37:24 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242461: May 15th 2018 at 6:37:25 PM

What.

Welp, so much for my attempt at optimism...

edited 15th May '18 6:37:55 PM by sgamer82

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#242462: May 15th 2018 at 6:38:43 PM

Who it is would be better left unsaid. No need to import drama.

Quite. Any further detail would unquestionably be crossing the drama importation line. I'm just saying, don't think of this thread like having a quiet chat with your buddy in the comfort of your living room. It's more equivalent to having a loud debate in the middle of a city park.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242463: May 15th 2018 at 6:41:57 PM

"Foster care or whatever" apparently means Released to Elsewhere.

That humor is so I don't cry.

edited 15th May '18 6:42:28 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242464: May 15th 2018 at 6:43:09 PM

If one meets a Trump voter complaining about what Trump is doing, I'd simply ask them if they plan on voting for someone else in 2020. Or if they plan on voting for a Democratic candidate for Congress in 2018. If the answer to either of those questions is "no", I'd just move on.

It's probably better to focus on people who didn't vote at all or voted third party.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#242465: May 15th 2018 at 6:43:41 PM

That's awful. I'm sure some people would consider any reduction in the number of brown children in the US a plus, though.

@Tobias: I'll keep it short to respect the no-importation rule, and I truly do understand what you mean, but my point is that we can't demand that people be 100% ready to be the face of the movement at all times. People are only human, and if the standard we have to hold to win undecided voters over is to be perfect and civil at all times under all circumstances, then it's just not going to happen, especially if people are actively searching for examples to discredit us.

It's been fun.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242466: May 15th 2018 at 6:45:45 PM

The fact that the board in general or anyone here in particular is important enough to warrant discrediting boggles my mind...

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242467: May 15th 2018 at 6:49:36 PM

The only way the migrant children issue could be worse at this point would be if it turned out the gov't officials were actually selling the children to human traffickers.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#242468: May 15th 2018 at 6:50:24 PM

I feel like that would cause riots.

Oh God! Natural light!
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#242470: May 15th 2018 at 6:59:59 PM

How are those primaries today going?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242471: May 15th 2018 at 7:01:37 PM

I looked up mine but Idaho's polls are still open I think. Or may only just be closing.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242472: May 15th 2018 at 7:03:06 PM

Shouldn't THIS be causing riots?

As opposed to a story that's barely mentioned in the news? Not just a newspaper editorial in Texas?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242473: May 15th 2018 at 7:03:23 PM

[up]x6 Oh, it gets worse, just you wait. (From Wa Po)

Trump administration preparing to hold immigrant children on military bases

The Trump administration is making preparations to hold immigrant children on military bases, according to Defense Department communications, the latest sign the government is moving forward with plans to split up families who cross the border illegally.

According to an email notification sent to Pentagon staffers, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) will make site visits at four military installations in Texas and Arkansas during the next two weeks to evaluate their suitability to shelter children.

The bases would be used for minors under 18 who arrive at the border without an adult relative or after the government has separated them from their parents. HHS is the government agency responsible for providing minors with foster care until another adult relative can assume custody.

The email characterized the site visits as a preliminary assessment. “No decisions have been made at this time,” it states.

An official at HHS confirmed the military site visits, speaking on the condition of anonymity because the plans are not yet public. The official said that HHS currently has the bed space to hold 10,571 children.

In a statement, the agency’s Administration for Children and Families said its programs require “routinely evaluating the needs and capacity of an existing network of approximately 100 shelters in 14 states.”

“Additional properties with existing infrastructure are routinely being identified and evaluated by federal agencies as potential locations for temporary sheltering,” the statement said.

Those facilities are at 91 percent capacity, the HHS official said, and the Trump administration’s crackdown plans could push thousands more children into government care. The official said that DHS has not provided projections for how many additional children to expect.

Trump officials say they are moving forcefully to halt a sharp increase in the number of families crossing the border illegally this spring, many of whom are Central Americans seeking asylum. U.S. border agents in March and April arrested more than 100,000 people who crossed the border illegally, the highest monthly totals since President Trump took office.

Trump has seethed at the increase, singling out Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen for blame.

He has ordered her to “close” the border and cut off the migration flows, which typically increase in spring with seasonal demand for rural labor.

Nielsen and Attorney General Jeff Sessions say the government will take the extraordinary measure of filing criminal charges against anyone who crosses the border illegally, including parents traveling with their children. In most cases, that means adults will be held at immigration jails to await court dates while their children are sent into foster care.

“If you’re smuggling a child, then we’re going to prosecute you, and that child will be separated from you, probably, as required by law,” Sessions said in a speech last week.

“If you don’t want your child separated, then don’t bring them across the border illegally,” he added. “It’s not our fault that somebody does that.”

Children held in HHS custody spend an average of 45 days in the government’s care, the HHS official said, and they are provided with educational and recreational opportunities. The agency conducts background checks on potential sponsors for the minors, and in 85 percent of cases the children are released to a parent or other adult relative already present in the United States, the official said.

Homeland Security officials have struggled for years to manage the demographic shift in the population of immigrants arrested at the border, where single men from Mexico were once the overwhelming majority of those taken into custody.

Families with children and unaccompanied minors made up 10 percent of illegal border crossers five years ago, Nielsen told senators in testimony Tuesday. Today, they account for 40 percent of those detained by U.S. border agents, she said.

The use of military bases to hold immigrant children is not without precedent. At the peak of the 2014 child-immigration crisis, the Obama administration used bases in Oklahoma, Texas and California to house more than 7,000 children over a period of several months.

Critics of the family-separation practices denounce the practice as heartless, saying it inflicts additional trauma on families fleeing from Central America’s bloody gang wars.

Trump last month ordered the Pentagon to help Homeland Security officials cope with the surge in illegal crossings, including the mobilization of up to 4,000 National Guard troops. Military personnel have been deployed in a supporting role and are not allowed to arrest immigrants.

It is not clear whether the troops could be assigned to the bases where children will be held. Three of the bases are in Texas — the Army’s Fort Bliss, Goodfellow Air Force Base and Dyess Air Force Base. Little Rock Air Force Base in Arkansas also will be evaluated, according to the Pentagon communications and HHS.

A Pentagon spokesman, Lt. Col. Jamie Davis, said the Defense Department had not yet received a formal request from HHS. When the military has loaned space at its facilities in the past, HHS has reimbursed the Defense Department and the military has had little to do with the operation.

edited 15th May '18 7:03:57 PM by megaeliz

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#242474: May 15th 2018 at 7:04:31 PM

[up][up]Every second children and other innocents suffer somewhere in the world, if that doesn't justify causing pointless destruction and disorder I don't see why this does.

[up]Even constrained fascism is rather nasty, I shudder to imagine what they would do to them if they weren't restrained by our system.

edited 15th May '18 7:05:33 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#242475: May 15th 2018 at 7:05:51 PM

[up] It's better than Private Prisons, but not by much.

edited 15th May '18 7:07:28 PM by megaeliz


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