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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#242276: May 14th 2018 at 7:40:06 PM

Yeah, keep throwing in Russia and dodging the issue. War with Russia isn't the issue and you damn well know it. How DO you defend murder by executive order?

Until your recent post clarified it was drone strikes you were on about, nobody had a clue what you were talking about, and "Hillary is an evil warmonger" is an accusation that 90 percent of the time is followed by accusations about "wanting a war with Russia." Had you been hear during the election and just after, you'd know that.

"Murder by executive order." That's so hyperbolic I don't even know how to begin addressing it.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242277: May 14th 2018 at 7:42:02 PM

I think the attacks in Yemen were also horrible.

And yes, I was very overdramatic.

Again, sorry. I shouldn't have posted that. My Berserk Button is not your responsibility to deal with.

[head bowed in submission]

I'm not afraid of war with Russia in Syria in the slightest but I was very skeptical of Hillary Clinton's plans to continue the War on Terror the way it was previously being fought by Obama, which showed no sign of going anywhere any soon. A state of continuous low level warfare all across the globe struck me as a very very bad thing.

edited 14th May '18 7:43:51 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242278: May 14th 2018 at 7:43:10 PM

It's not the fact it's little robots doing it versus people it's the fact it's done constantly and with no regard to the state.

As M84 said, drones aren't robots.

Secondly, the majority of countries that the US conducts drone strikes in are countries that invited the US military in. Whether we should have accepted those invitations is one thing, but we work with the support of their governments. As I said before, Pakistan is the only country that has a claim to its sovereignty being violated.

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242279: May 14th 2018 at 7:43:52 PM

[up][up]And again, it's not "little robots vs. people". It's people vs. people. It always has been and likely always will be. Don't try to evoke fears of Skynet or some shit like that.

edited 14th May '18 7:44:09 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242280: May 14th 2018 at 7:44:57 PM

While I'm aware they're not robots...the point is that there's no difference between it and a missile strike.

The issue isn't whether Skynet is killing people, it's the issue of how many people are being killed in causally ordered wetwork.

Edit:

Also, are people actually talking about whether it would matter if it WAS robots or not? I mean, even if they did program a drone to go bomb someone, what would be the difference? It would still be X number of dead people.

I don't believe A.I. is actually possible.

edited 14th May '18 7:46:34 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242281: May 14th 2018 at 7:45:39 PM

[up] Then don't call them fucking robots.

Disgusted, but not surprised
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242282: May 14th 2018 at 7:45:41 PM

[up][up] People get killed like that all the time. Drones are no different at all.

edited 14th May '18 7:45:59 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242283: May 14th 2018 at 7:46:29 PM

[up][up][up] You're right, there's no difference between a drone strike, or a missile strike, or an airstrike or artillery bombardment or any of the other things we do during war. Drones aren't some uniquely evil phenomenon, we've been killing people by remote control since the end of WW 2.

edited 14th May '18 7:47:01 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#242284: May 14th 2018 at 7:46:36 PM

BREAKING NEWS: The Criminal Charges against Gov. Eric Greitens (R-MO) have been dropped, due to Greiten's request to call Kim Gardner (the Prosecutor) as a witness were accepted by the Circuit Court Judge. The Prosecution plans to immediately refile the charges, with the hope of getting a Special Prosecutor to replace Gardner.

What a terrible move, especially on the Judges part. Who the hell would accept the demand that the Prosecuting Attorney be put as a witness? And of course, the fact that the case was dropped at all (not just because of what appears to be an incredibly corrupt move) will just fuel speculation that the whole case is bogus (which it absolutely isn't). Hope Greitens' gets the maximum penalty (although considering this judge apparently sides with him already, I doubt he will).

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242285: May 14th 2018 at 7:47:51 PM

[up]Then don't call them fucking robots.

Is it really something that matters?

AI doesn't exist and never will exist.

(I'm a believer in Roger Penrose's consciousness work)

edited 14th May '18 7:52:11 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242286: May 14th 2018 at 7:49:24 PM

[up] Yes it matters. Because otherwise you're ignoring the fact that a human pilot is the one controlling the drone.

It's almost as if words mean something. But then again, given how you've misused "warmonger" and "technocrat"...

edited 14th May '18 7:55:31 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242287: May 14th 2018 at 7:50:05 PM

@Ambar: I dont know where you teach, but the University of Alberta's Student Code of Ethics is considered something of a benchmark, so IMHO it would be helpful to view it as representative of the kind of approach Canada expects of professional, ethical instructors. You can find a copy here.

It's useful to examine some of the highlights:

Section 30.1.1 States that "Any Student who has been accused of having committed an offence under this Code has the right" [followed by a list of rights, including]: "to be presumed not to have commi tted an offence until their commission of an offence has been established on the balance of probabilities, before an impartial and unbiased decision- maker;

Section 30.3.2 "Inappropriate Academic Behavior" lists the following: Plagerism, cheating, misuse of confidential materials, research and scholarship misconduct, and Inappropriate Behaviour in Professional Programs.

Section 30.3.4 lists "Inappropriate Behaviour towards Individuals or Groups" and includes: disruption, discrimmination, Dissemination of Malicious Material, retaliation, unfounded allegations, violations of safety or dignity, hazing,

Section 30.3.5 lists examples of Inappropriate Use of University Property and Resources

and Section 30.3.6 lists a variety of Other Offences mostly having to do with the abuse of alcohol and other drugs.

Now, we could debate whether or not holding a particular set of political views, however offensive and wrong, constitutes a violation of any of these behaviors defined as unacceptable behavior under this code. I will admit that I do not know enough about Canadain jurisprudence to say how the expression of fascist beliefs in a classroom would be defined with respect to a code like this. I would imagine it would depened on what the topic of the course was. In the context of a course on political science it might seem topical, in a course on geometry not so much.

But it doesnt matter, because even if fascist views are deemed unacceptable in Canada, the actions that the instructor is to undertake in the event of any of these behaviors is clearly spelled out:

Under section 30.4.1 "General Provisions" which members of the university have the authority to decide if a student is in violation of the code is spelled out—instructors are not listed.

Section 30.4.2 "Types of Sanctions" lists the types of disciplinary actions that can be undertaken in response to a code violation—ignoring a student, not asking them questions or otherwise excluding them from classroom discussions is not included. "Exclusion" and "Expulsion" are, as I noted from my experience as an American college instructor.

However, under section 30.4.3(1) "Minor Sanctions" it notes that instructors can dismiss a student from class for "disturbing, disrupting or otherwise interfering with a Class." We can debate whether or not the expression of certain specific political views constitutes interfering with a class, if you wish.

Note that I do include haranging, harassing, monologuing, overspeaking, speaking off topic and similar behaviors as actions that constitute interference. But sharing a political belief, however offensive, just once or in response to a question or in the context of a discussion on political beliefs, in my opinion, would not. Moreover, I hold that haranging and harassing and so forth would be inteference regardless of the specific views espressed, however, even if they were generally deemed socially desirable or progressive. This seems completely consistend with the Code, at least as I read it. Perhaps you have a different interpretation?

Online classes, I admit, have a different set of dynamics governing participation. At least in most courses I have participated in, most interaction consists of text, and so the written word carries more weight than it would in a face to face classroom setting. I don't believe that changes the essential nature of what constitutes interference with the class, however.

In any event, regardless of any of the above, in all cases of unacceptable behavior by students, the process begins in the same way. According to section 30.5.1 "The General Rules of Discipline and Appeal" instructors always makes a recommendation to the Dean—that step begins the formal disciplinary process.

Therefore, I hold that if one takes your previous statements as posted here literally, the actions you espouse would appear to be in violation of at least one Code of Conduct in Canada. Of course, it might be that your institution does not seek to uphold its instructors to the same professional standard as the University of Alberta (or colleges in the United States), but obviously I cant know that. If you think that Alberta's code is inappropriate, you can make that case.

Regardless, "ignoring them" in the hope that the other students wont be bothered by their offensive views does not appear to be considered a prescribed approach.

Teach 'em or boot 'em.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242288: May 14th 2018 at 7:52:48 PM

AI doesn't exist and never will exist.

I wouldn't bet any money on that.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242289: May 14th 2018 at 7:53:15 PM

[up]It's almost as if words mean something. But then again, given how you've misused "warmonger" and "technocrat", I shouldn't be surprised.

Well, I would love a defense for how you think Hillary's policy (assuming it followed the one she recommended to Obama and he followed) was actually a good thing. Mostly, I've heard warmonger called out and technocrat and robot but no actual statement any of it was a good thing.

[up]I wouldn't bet any money on that.

Possibly.

edited 14th May '18 7:53:40 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242291: May 14th 2018 at 7:55:30 PM

Section 30.3.4 lists "Inappropriate Behaviour towards Individuals or Groups" and includes: disruption, discrimmination, Dissemination of Malicious Material, retaliation, unfounded allegations, violations of safety or dignity, hazing,

Being a fascist counts as like, half of them.

edited 14th May '18 7:55:45 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#242292: May 14th 2018 at 7:56:39 PM

[up][up]Revolving door. Hardly surprising.

[up][up][up]Though I fear to ask, how exactly are you defining those two terms? Because "more aggressive posture" isn't the same as warmongering, just for starters.

edited 14th May '18 7:56:51 PM by TheRoguePenguin

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242293: May 14th 2018 at 7:56:49 PM

@Charles Phipps: Well, if you want to make the point that targeted assassination by executive order is a violation or progressive values, then I think you should spell out your case. Because not everyone agrees with you. I would be curious to know when you think the President has the authority to use lethal force overseas, if ever.

@Kazuya: How, exactly?

edited 14th May '18 7:58:06 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242294: May 14th 2018 at 7:56:50 PM

[up][up][up]Not even just being a fascist. Outright braying stuff in class that outs one as a fascist. Which seems pretty damn disruptive to me.

edited 14th May '18 7:58:40 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242295: May 14th 2018 at 7:57:33 PM

[up]x6 I've found that betting against science is a bad proposition.

But as to whether targeted killings and expanding the war on terror were good choices, it's hard to say. There really wasn't any good choice in that situation, so in many ways those choices were the best available choices while still not being good. And it's hard to debate the merits of something, when the only criticism you've leveled against it so far is "too robotic".

edited 14th May '18 7:57:58 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#242296: May 14th 2018 at 7:58:34 PM

AI doesn't exist and never will exist.

(I'm a believer in Roger Penrose's consciousness work)

There's a lot of issues that hard AI faces, but Penrose's arguments are pretty iffy

Though in relation to the discussion this doesn't really matter, since warbots are being actively worked on and don't actually need true conciousness to function

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242297: May 14th 2018 at 7:59:51 PM

Offer an argument, guys, dont just make a blanket statement. How does the expression of a belief, if not done in a harranging, overspeaking manner, constitute interfering with the class?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242299: May 14th 2018 at 8:02:42 PM

Disruption: Maybe not necessarily but the rest?

Discrimmination (easy trait of any neo fascist)

Dissemination of Malicious Material (fascist views count as dangerous per se)

Retaliation (high chances that it will happens against a minority)

Unfounded allegations (racist love doing this)

Violations of safety or dignity (I need to explain this?),

edited 14th May '18 8:03:57 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#242300: May 14th 2018 at 8:02:58 PM

"American tries to lecture person from another country on their internal policies. News at ten."

I'm not in Alberta, De Marq. And even if I was, all you're doing is quoting words from a document. You've got no real concept of what they mean, because even in Alberta, the single most reactionary province in the country (so nice work on that front), the open expression of fascist views generally isn't tolerated.

Maybe whatever part of America you live in has set in stone rules demanding that neo-Nazis be given a chance, consequences to the other students be damned. But those rules don't even apply to the rest of America, let alone foreign countries.

Nothing I've done violates any part of the ethics rules. I've been commended for my performance in fact. So if you want to let your resident neofascists keep talking, you go right ahead and do that. Me, I'll keep doing what I'm doing so that the other 99 percent of the students can get the full benefit of the education they paid for.


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