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RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242251: May 14th 2018 at 6:17:58 PM

I've become interested in the presidents throughout history. I've noticed that the generation before Lincoln hosts one of the most forgettable/average or bad litany of presidents. Martin Van Buren, William Henry Harrison, John Tyler, James Knox Polk, Zachary Taylor, Millard Fillmore, Franklin Pierce and James Buchanan. I like to call them the post-Jackson presidents

Which of these guys is your favorite, if you even have one?

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242252: May 14th 2018 at 6:19:50 PM

[up]x5 Germany was put under military administration after WW 2, and they aggressively pursued Nazi affiliates and censored all speech deemed even Nazi-adjacent. It worked there, but I doubt it's something we could bring to the US.

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242253: May 14th 2018 at 6:20:13 PM

[up][up]They were all painfully mediocre at best. The one who did the least damage was the guy who died in a month after taking office.

edited 14th May '18 6:20:26 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
RainingMetal (Handed A Sword) Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#242254: May 14th 2018 at 6:20:53 PM

[up][up][up] Van Buren probably stands out as the one guy who isn't related to King John.

edited 14th May '18 6:21:04 PM by RainingMetal

ASAB: All Sponsors Are Bad.
thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#242255: May 14th 2018 at 6:28:04 PM

[up][up][up][up] Polk has a reputation for being decent; he promised a short list of things, did all of them, then left after one term in office.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#242256: May 14th 2018 at 6:30:37 PM

@archon I see, are there any other factors in play that were as effective in the guilt-tripping (as Kazuya put it)?

more on-topic, wasn't there a president from the post-Jackson era that was known for...getting stuck in a tub?

edited 14th May '18 6:33:20 PM by MorningStar1337

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#242257: May 14th 2018 at 6:31:07 PM

[up][up] And died mere months after leaving office, too.

That said, if I recall, his most significant accomplishment was Manifest Destiny, so...yeah...

Still, I wouldn’t say that forgotten necessarily means insignificant.

edited 14th May '18 6:31:57 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Hylarn (Don’t ask)
#242258: May 14th 2018 at 6:40:45 PM

more on-topic, wasn't there a president from the post-Jackson era that was known for...getting stuck in a tub?

Taft was 1909-1913

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242259: May 14th 2018 at 6:51:15 PM

[up][up][up] The denazification of post-war Germany isn't something that could really be repeated in a modern country. If it had happened anywhere other than post-war Germany it would have been called dictatorial.

The Germans have remained committed, though I don't think it's so much a matter of national guilt as it is a new ideological stance for their country. Especially considering how they were torn apart during the Cold War they have a much different view on things than they did at the beginning of the 19th century.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242260: May 14th 2018 at 7:06:25 PM

I think Hillary was a warmongering technocrat who was going to continue a campaign of targeted assassinations as well as violation of national sovereignty as well as the violation of civil liberties which Obama didn't correct.

But I still voted for her over the Big Orange Cheeto.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#242261: May 14th 2018 at 7:11:07 PM

I think Hillary was a warmongering technocrat who was going to continue a campaign of targeted assassinations as well as violation of national sovereignty as well as the violation of civil liberties which Obama didn't correct.

"Warmonger" and "technocrat" are not words that you get to have your own private definitions of. Under no circumstance did she qualify as a "warmonger". The only people who pushed that narrative were the Trump fanboys, and a few elements of the fringe left, who somehow confused "no fly zone in Syria," for "war with Russia."

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242262: May 14th 2018 at 7:11:57 PM

[up][up] Hillary was no more or less warmongering than any other politician. That's a line straight from Fox.

And while there's a case to be made that the drone program is unethical, there's an equally strong case that it's just the nature of the 21st century battlefield.

edited 14th May '18 7:12:19 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242263: May 14th 2018 at 7:15:04 PM

Wait, is someone seriously spewing the "HRC is a warmonger" bullshit here?

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242264: May 14th 2018 at 7:16:26 PM

I'm also not sure you can call her a warmonger when the person who beat her in the election absolutely wants a war, Even if he has to settle for a trade war.

Trump is basically everything people only ever accused Clinton of being. It's why I feel her flaws are irrelevant now.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242265: May 14th 2018 at 7:29:30 PM

[up]"Warmonger" and "technocrat" are not words that you get to have your own private definitions of. Under no circumstance did she qualify as a "warmonger". The only people who pushed that narrative were the Trump fanboys, and a few elements of the fringe left, who somehow confused "no fly zone in Syria," for "war with Russia."

Criticism of Obama and Hillary's military policy as well as violations of sovereignty plus unrestricted use of assassination as well as the broadening of war is NOT something you can shove under the rug.

It was vile and I can't understand how anyone can defend it without coming off exactly like the people who talk about how torture should be continued to be used.

Saying the Right made that up is EXACTLY the kind of trick they pull.

edited 14th May '18 7:54:28 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242266: May 14th 2018 at 7:32:36 PM

The difference is whether it's actually true in their case or not. The Left has benefit of the doubt cred the Right lacks

edited 14th May '18 7:33:13 PM by sgamer82

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#242267: May 14th 2018 at 7:33:29 PM

It's a "despicable propagandist claim" to report reality? Did you somehow miss the flood of accusations from the Trump trolls about how Clinton was going to start a war with Russia? It was pushed by the various alt-right sites, and, predictably, the Russian bots, and was eventually picked up by "leftist" sources like the Ivancept, but it's a right-wing talking point. That's just a fact.

The rest of your post is just general accusations about "broadening war" with no actual facts to support it, so I'm going to have to assume, in the absence of other information, that you are indeed insisting she was going to start something with Russia. Which is again, a right-wing talking point. Maybe don't repeat those.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242268: May 14th 2018 at 7:34:40 PM

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/the-obama-administrations-drone-strike-dissembling/473541/

The sheer amount of casualties inflicted and collateral damage is it's own argument. I voted for Hillary because Trump is a monster and a fascist but seriously, the Left is actually arguing the misuse of presidential powers to kill indiscriminately isn't a thing?

That's a little appalling, I'm sorry. I feel very strongly on this and I used to support drone warfare.

Someone corrected me.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242269: May 14th 2018 at 7:34:58 PM

[up]x4 You're right. The Right didn't make it up.

Because it never happened in the first place.

edited 14th May '18 7:35:13 PM by kkhohoho

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242270: May 14th 2018 at 7:36:04 PM

[up]''It's a "despicable propagandist claim" to report reality? Did you somehow miss the flood of accusations from the Trump trolls about how Clinton was going to start a war with Russia? It was pushed by the various alt-right sites, and, predictably, the Russian bots, and was eventually picked up by "leftist" sources like the Ivancept, but it's a right-wing talking point. That's just a fact.

The rest of your post is just general accusations about "broadening war" with no actual facts to support it, so I'm going to have to assume, in the absence of other information, that you are indeed insisting she was going to start something with Russia. Which is again, a right-wing talking point. Maybe don't repeat those. ''

Yeah, keep throwing in Russia and dodging the issue. War with Russia isn't the issue and you damn well know it. How DO you defend murder by executive order?

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#242271: May 14th 2018 at 7:37:31 PM

Ah, we're on about drones. Drones kill no more people than airstrikes do, and typically less. The demonization of the drone program as something uniquely evil is something that's got to stop. It's nothing new. We've been doing this since the Cold War. It's one thing to dislike it, another to pretend it's something new and terrible.

edited 14th May '18 7:39:56 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242272: May 14th 2018 at 7:37:56 PM

[up][up]Maybe we'd actually get somewhere if you explained exactly what 'murders' you're talking about in the first place. With proof to back it up. If you can't, then you don't have an argument.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242273: May 14th 2018 at 7:39:04 PM

[up]x8 I've criticised Obama's war policy here many, many times before, but "violations of sovereignty plus unrestricted use of assassination" is a little bit of a deceptive way to describe it.

The only country that had its sovereignty "violated" under Obama was Pakistan, and given that they were funding, housing and training enemy combatants we're getting into a question of the limits of the idea of sovereignty, and whether that shields a country from consequences.

As far as drone strikes, it's worth noting that not only were the reports of insane collateral damage based on an initial misreading of the Pentagon's reporting system, but that the majority of the strikes took place in active warzones. Collateral damage from our artillery in said warzones was much greater, and airstrikes more common, but the focus was shone on the drone program because it was headline-grabbing and scary.

Obama had his share of failings, and the handling of the wars he inherited is one of them. Let's not misinterpret the facts though.

edited 14th May '18 7:40:02 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#242274: May 14th 2018 at 7:39:05 PM

Well, I guess we'll just have to disagree.

I'm sorry my opinion got heated and resorted to name calling, I'm not normally that way and apologize. However, my opinion is that both it and airstrikes have only essentially reduced acts of war into daily events. It's not the fact it's little robots doing it versus people it's the fact it's done constantly and with no regard to the state.

Again, sorry for getting heated but it bothers me to no end it's been normalized.

It's one of those hot button issues and I was bitterly disappointed in Hillary's support of these kind of strikes which were worrisome in her husband's tenure in office only to get worse and worse. Expansion of Presidential power as well as continuous use of wartime force in non-war countries is a major threat to US democracy.

edited 14th May '18 7:40:05 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#242275: May 14th 2018 at 7:40:04 PM

[up] Drones are not fucking robots. They are controlled by human beings.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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