TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#242076: May 14th 2018 at 4:23:41 AM

[up][up] Considering that the one classical liberal party I know - which is the German FDP - is fairly pro-equality etc, colour me skeptical of these self-proclaimed "classical liberals" actually being such.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#242077: May 14th 2018 at 4:25:21 AM

How are they pro-equality though? Through the Welfare State and hate speech laws and etc.? Classical liberals don't like the State mucking around in peoples' business, especially business' business.

edited 14th May '18 4:26:18 AM by Nikkolas

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#242078: May 14th 2018 at 4:29:48 AM

All "classical liberal" means is "I'm too chicken-shit to publicly identify as conservative and also want to sound smart."

i'm tired, my friend
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242079: May 14th 2018 at 4:35:19 AM

In other parts it means just a term to refer to standard liberal positions.

Usually used as a pejorative for both Socialists and regressives

edited 14th May '18 4:36:16 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#242080: May 14th 2018 at 4:38:59 AM

[up][up][up] Hate speech isn't "people's business", though.

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#242081: May 14th 2018 at 4:43:54 AM

[up] Fair enough.

I'm not really one to argue what classical liberals thought. I got the Wikipedia definition and stuff but I haven't really read anybody who is described as a classical liberal. (like, the real actual liberals from centuries ago)

I don't know what Thomas Paine and so-forth would make of hate speech laws. (Thomas Paine is a Founding Father of the US, by the way. I don't think he's well-known outside our country. He's barely known even in our country)

edited 14th May '18 4:44:53 AM by Nikkolas

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#242082: May 14th 2018 at 4:47:27 AM

[up] This is the closest example of "classical liberalism" from my country, as far as I'm aware.

To point something out: This example is still counted as centre-right, while a lot of those "I'm not alt-right, I'm a classical liberal" people tend to be on the far right end of the spectrum (just look at Carl Benjamin and his Islamophobia).

edited 14th May '18 4:47:34 AM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#242083: May 14th 2018 at 4:47:32 AM

The FDP is pro equality. They'd just rather not spent political capital on it that they could spend blowing up corporations arses.

"You can reply to this Message!"
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#242084: May 14th 2018 at 4:48:38 AM

[up] They're still more sane than some other examples I've seen - more "only as much state as necessary" instead of "BURN IT ALL DOWN! CORPORATIONS RULE!"

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#242085: May 14th 2018 at 4:49:53 AM

There’s more than a few political parties in Europe that could be described as classically liberal, but the ideology as a whole doesn’t really exist any more. The OG classical liberals were sort of discredited when their economic models proved to be inaccurate, and then they were gradually eclipsed by welfare state liberalism. These days it more or less just means libertarian.

They should have sent a poet.
3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#242086: May 14th 2018 at 4:51:30 AM

[up][up]Yeah but I don't judge The Left with the MLPD as Meterstick either.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#242087: May 14th 2018 at 4:52:39 AM

Reading that wikipedia page, I got a question.

What is privatized social security? Does that mean everybody just saves up for their own retirement fund or something?

What about other facets of Social Security like Disability or Survivors? (not sure if you have that in Germany)? I get the latter and stuff because I'm disabled and my dad died.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242088: May 14th 2018 at 4:52:49 AM

The idea that you can get social equality without the state forcing people to accept it is just too optimist to me.

If you're wondering, I don't think that forcing people to do good things is bad at all

edited 14th May '18 4:53:46 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#242089: May 14th 2018 at 5:35:00 AM

The alt-right is unique because at least one of its founding sub-strains literally identified itself as "men who can't get laid." (Incels.) And that movement is the core of what fueled the Youtube strain. That's what got them on board the Trump train, after all - their reaction to the idea that it's not okay to harass women anymore. One and all, I'm pretty sure that the alt-right are not on board with that particular sea change.

I think that much of their other stuff (anti-immigration, for example) is a manifestation of a phenomenon some Cracked writer mentioned: Hate groups gonna hate. They usually have a particular target, but they'll freely hate anyone who's not their vision of real people - as noted when major "redpill" communities lashed out at gays who tried to join the movement. Combine that with a desire to troll "SJWs" and you've got a neo-fascist movement.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#242090: May 14th 2018 at 6:00:56 AM

The alt-right is simply a rebranding of a faction that's existed for centuries, consisting largely of white males who find themselves feeling oppressed by society and want to strike back at it. They latch on to any politician or political movement that promises them revenge and a chance to indulge their power fantasies.

edited 14th May '18 6:01:33 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#242091: May 14th 2018 at 6:40:19 AM

They usually have a particular target, but they'll freely hate anyone who's not their vision of real people - as noted when major "redpill" communities lashed out at gays who tried to join the movement.

Isn't Milo Yiannopoulos one of the alt right's biggest spokesmen, though? Or at least he was at one point.

Combine that with a desire to troll "SJ Ws" and you've got a neo-fascist movement.

Confession time: I actually went through an anti-SJW phase back in late 2013 and 2014. I had just started using Tumblr, and I was disgusted by all the harassment and bullying I saw being done in the name of social justice, and the way people would be ostracized for committing minor slip-ups.

Since then, I've learned that "SJW" is really just a phrase used to condemn anyone who cares about social justice, and that you can still be committed to that cause while condemning people who use it as a tool to harass people they don't like.

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#242092: May 14th 2018 at 6:51:11 AM

Okay, so the Tumblrina types are genuinely irritating at times because of how relentlessly avant-garde they try to be in their politics, but it just doesn't feel right to criticize them too harshly anymore, since actual white supremacists are in government. Viewpoints on a blog that irk male or white sensibilities are the smallest of potatoes compared to the Trump regime.

edited 14th May '18 7:18:53 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#242093: May 14th 2018 at 6:54:07 AM

I would say the staunchest example of modern classic liberalism is probably The Economist magazine. Liberal Democrats also maybe? In this country maybe American Enterprise Institute and Cato Instilute or they used to, not sure about now.

Trump delenda est
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242094: May 14th 2018 at 7:05:35 AM

[up][up] I saw a Anarchist girl calling Tumblr "authoritarian left".

I wanted to punch her because she haven't see what real authoritarianism is.

Spoiler: Is a more along a communist terrorist shooting your family and throwing babies from a climb than a angsty person complaing on internet

Watch me destroying my country
Nikkolas from Texas Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
#242095: May 14th 2018 at 7:23:09 AM

@Tye Dye Wildebeest

As a gay Jew, some members of the Alt-Right were against him, notably the guy who runs the Daily Shoa where he wrote an article succinctly titled "Can't Kike the Alt-Right."

Milo was big with the "Alt-lite" or Gamer Gators. They're all shit but different flavors of shit.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#242096: May 14th 2018 at 7:55:16 AM

@Kazuya: Your committing a logical fallacy. Just because certain people may not exemplify the most extreme examples you can think of, doesnt mean that they are not authoritarian in their political attitudes. After all, brutal tyrannies dont just appear out of mid-air, a lot of them get elected.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#242097: May 14th 2018 at 8:00:42 AM

More on topic: In a 6-3 ruling, the SCOTUS has ruled that the 1992 federal ban on sports gambling is unconstitutional.

Mark down another victory for states' rights, for better or for worse. I have no real feelings about this at the moment, because it depends on how different states respond. Obviously, New Jersey is going ahead full steam.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#242098: May 14th 2018 at 8:02:29 AM

Idaho might follow suit, since they're been stuff in the news about a Boise horse racing track off and on for a while. Though I confess I haven't paid it and attention myself.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#242099: May 14th 2018 at 8:02:54 AM

[up][up][up] Whining on the internet is no way close to actual abuse.

Don't get me wrong, Tumblr users that bully people for not being their exact branch of leftist is awful, but calling them authoritarian feels like trivializing actual authoritarianism

edited 14th May '18 8:04:07 AM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#242100: May 14th 2018 at 8:11:58 AM

So, the discussion of whether "SJW" is relevant last page went pretty much how I've come to expect it to, with people citing examples from fandom fights and shipping wars to prove they do exist. Here's the thing—fandom fights and shipping wars do not effect society at large in any meaningful way.

That some fifteen year old girl somewhere appropriated social justice rhetoric (likely without understanding it in the first place) to bash a ship she does not like is entirely irrelevant to my life, and to the lives of anyone who is not within that particular fandom, and shipping that particular ship. Fanfiction writers are not a major political demographic and as a group do not have a notable pull in society at large. Bringing up fandom nonsense to claim that SJWs are real, or worse yet, relevant, misses the point being made entirely.

r/incels had 40 000 members when it was shut down. That's 40 000 men who subscribe to an ideology based around hatred of and violence towards women, and that's one alt-right platform. That's not looking at membership in r/The Donald or r/Physical Removal or all the other hate reddits. That's not even looking at other websites, and it's not looking at the spillover fact into lived reality. Incels have committed acts of mass murder. Breitbart, Info Wars, and 4Chan helped elect the current President of the United States. People are in danger or already dead because of the alt-right's actions.

We are all members of fandoms, and we are all people who spend at least a fair amount of our time on the Internet. That's great and I wouldn't have it any other way. But we need to wrap our heads around the fact that what happens in our fandom spaces? Does not always have an effect on the rest of the world that's worth mentioning in a discussion of US Politics. People are not getting shot in the streets for shipping wrong. And when someone tries to create false equivalence between the alt-right and the left by invoking SJW please, resist the urge to bring up your bad experience with a couple of idiots in a fandom—because those are not comparable and you are giving the alt-right cover.


Total posts: 417,856
Top