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Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#241351: May 6th 2018 at 3:36:57 PM

Mind you, it's also worth pointing out that Nazism as a brand is pretty discredited. Card-Carrying Nazis are not all that politically influential and just about everyone hates them in the US. The risk Nazis bring to the US isn't a literal take-over, it's getting bits of their platform into the mainstream by disguising them as a more harmless policy.

Leviticus 19:34
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241352: May 6th 2018 at 5:31:18 PM

Nazis are a lot more numerous than they appear and can form a surprisingly potent voting block, especially since they're just a different shade of The Klan in America and while they're mostly a degenerate bunch of meth-heads—there's a lot of them. They tried to take over a county in Leith, North Dakota and they've had plans (successful ones) where they've infiltrated local law enforcement as well as other groups.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Leith

Go visit the Texas-Mexico border after all.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#241353: May 6th 2018 at 5:34:53 PM

The problem, as mentioned above, is defining what constitutes unlawful political thought. "Ban Nazis" seems like a good idea, but is really pretty vague when it comes down to it.

They should have sent a poet.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#241354: May 6th 2018 at 5:35:38 PM

[up][up] you know who really needs "extreme vetting"?

The CBP and ICE.

This Daily show segment goes into it pretty well.

edited 6th May '18 5:39:20 PM by megaeliz

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241355: May 6th 2018 at 5:53:53 PM

@Beary Scary: Well, there's a few issues with that. In particular, you need to define Nazism and Fascism, which is actually very difficult. Godwin's Law is a bitch.
This is verging on "General Politics" territory but I can absolutely do that.

Umberto Eco's excellent article on Ur-Fascism I think quite excellently lists the common characteristics of fascist ideologies. Which I personally view quite a few Republicans (most of the nationalist populists like Trump) as falling under.

Here's an abridged list of the traits listed in the article:

  • 1. The first feature of Ur-Fascism is the cult of tradition. Traditionalism is of course much older than fascism. Not only was it typical of counter-revolutionary Catholic thought after the French revolution, but it was born in the late Hellenistic era, as a reaction to classical Greek rationalism. In the Mediterranean basin, people of different religions (most of them indulgently accepted by the Roman Pantheon) started dreaming of a revelation received at the dawn of human history. This revelation, according to the traditionalist mystique, had remained for a long time concealed under the veil of forgotten languages—in Egyptian hieroglyphs, in the Celtic runes, in the scrolls of the little known religions of Asia.

  • 2. Traditionalism implies the rejection of modernism. Both Fascists and Nazis worshiped technology, while traditionalist thinkers usually reject it as a negation of traditional spiritual values. However, even though Nazism was proud of its industrial achievements, its praise of modernism was only the surface of an ideology based upon Blood and Earth (Blut und Boden). The rejection of the modern world was disguised as a rebuttal of the capitalistic way of life, but it mainly concerned the rejection of the Spirit of 1789 (and of 1776, of course). The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.

  • 3. Irrationalism also depends on the cult of action for action’s sake. Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation. Therefore culture is suspect insofar as it is identified with critical attitudes.

  • 4. Besides, disagreement is a sign of diversity. Ur-Fascism grows up and seeks for consensus by exploiting and exacerbating the natural fear of difference. The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.

  • 5. Ur-Fascism derives from individual or social frustration. That is why one of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups. In our time, when the old “proletarians” are becoming petty bourgeois (and the lumpen are largely excluded from the political scene), the fascism of tomorrow will find its audience in this new majority.

  • 6. To people who feel deprived of a clear social identity, Ur-Fascism says that their only privilege is the most common one, to be born in the same country. This is the origin of nationalism. Besides, the only ones who can provide an identity to the nation are its enemies. Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged. The easiest way to solve the plot is the appeal to xenophobia.

  • 7. Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology, insofar as it is fundamentally aristocratic, and aristocratic and militaristic elitism cruelly implies contempt for the weak. Ur-Fascism can only advocate a popular elitism. Every citizen belongs to the best people of the world, the members of the party are the best among the citizens, every citizen can (or ought to) become a member of the party. But there cannot be patricians without plebeians. In fact, the Leader, knowing that his power was not delegated to him democratically but was conquered by force, also knows that his force is based upon the weakness of the masses; they are so weak as to need and deserve a ruler. Since the group is hierarchically organized (according to a military model), every subordinate leader despises his own underlings, and each of them despises his inferiors. This reinforces the sense of mass elitism.

I could go on but that would be excessive, many Republicans (mostly those aligned with Trump) quite closely align with the traits listed here and the other traits within the article. Thus I without hesitation consider them to be fascists (in a purely descriptive sense not as a pejorative).

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#241356: May 6th 2018 at 5:54:25 PM

[Quoteblock]] Nazis are a lot more numerous than they appear and can form a surprisingly potent voting block, especially since they're just a different shade of The Klan in America and while they're mostly a degenerate bunch of meth-heads—there's a lot of them. They tried to take over a county in Leith, North Dakota and they've had plans (successful ones) where they've infiltrated local law enforcement as well as other groups. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Leith Go visit the Texas-Mexico border after all.[[/quoteblock]]

Dear God, that's as close to the plot of Far Cry 5 as you can get . . . for now of course.

edited 6th May '18 5:55:29 PM by FluffyMcChicken

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241357: May 6th 2018 at 5:55:05 PM

That actually may be the basis for the Far Cry plot or at least part of it.

Edit:

But yes, I remember how the whole US Border Patrol [[Note: Not a government agency]] thing happened. A bunch of people started squads to arrest illegal immigrants (illegally) as well as claim it's because the government wasn't doing enough to stop illegal immigration. So they arrested 1500 people and turned them over to the authorities and Fox News talked about how these concerned citizens were doing their part...right up until they all gathered together for a rally where they waved Nazi flags and wore Klan hoods.

Surprise surprise.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/intelligence-report/2015/armed-neo-nazis-80%98helping80%99-us-border-patrol

edited 6th May '18 6:04:35 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#241358: May 6th 2018 at 6:04:11 PM

Can't we do something like what Germany has done to denounce nazism?

Do not obey in advance.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241359: May 6th 2018 at 6:06:06 PM

My dad was a wise man when he said, "Nazism was a reactionary uprising in Germany, in America it's an ancient tradition."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#241360: May 6th 2018 at 6:06:24 PM

[up]It's been tried and failed twice in Tennessee.

i'm tired, my friend
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241361: May 6th 2018 at 6:08:51 PM

There was also the whole Confederacy thing.

Just saying.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241362: May 6th 2018 at 6:09:12 PM

I highly doubt Nazism has any real future as a serious ideology in the US, open Neo-Nazis will always be marginal outcasts as long as our society is even slightly similar to our own. Rather if fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the American Flag and talk about "those people" threatening our national security. '

Of course since I consider Trumpian Republicans to be fascists I think that ship has already sailed.

edited 6th May '18 6:09:56 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241363: May 6th 2018 at 6:13:33 PM

Repackaged Nazism is still Nazism.

Just like Universiti is still Blackwater.

edited 6th May '18 6:13:53 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#241364: May 6th 2018 at 6:18:00 PM

[up] Nazism is actually a relatively distinct form of fascism. It's considered to be ideologically seperate in a lot of ways. Actual card-carrying Nazis are pretty rare these days, what's more common is various strains of psudeo-fascist thought.

edited 6th May '18 6:22:10 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241365: May 6th 2018 at 6:18:29 PM

[up][up]No it's not, all Nazis are fascists but not all fascists are Nazis. It's the difference between National Socialism and Portuguese Integralism and the Legionnaire movement and Rexism and Italian Fascism and others. Fascism covers quite a few ideologies that are rather different from Nazism and it would be a mistake to just reduce it to that.

edited 6th May '18 6:18:40 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#241366: May 6th 2018 at 6:46:48 PM

Trump's a neofascist, not a classic Nazi. Let's save the Nazi card for when we need it.

edited 6th May '18 6:47:09 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#241367: May 6th 2018 at 6:51:18 PM

Trump may be the Neo-Nazis of America's favorite politician — barring his occasional "Happy Hanukkah" tweets — but he's not an outright goose-stepping armband wearing Nazi.

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#241368: May 6th 2018 at 6:51:31 PM

Honestly, the whole thing always feels like people have forgotten that there are other forms of fascism *besides* Nazism.

edited 6th May '18 6:51:47 PM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#241369: May 6th 2018 at 6:53:00 PM

I guess we could try comparing Trump to Franco and Mussolini too.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#241370: May 6th 2018 at 6:55:17 PM

What I really miss is when America had its original anti-fascist movement back in the 1930s and 40s, although that was when fascism was a genuine threat militarily.

During those times America targeted all types of fascism aside from the Nazis - Mussolini's, the Japanese military junta, the Rexists, etc. Propaganda, outdated concepts and some values dissonance aside, the Why We Fight series does an excellent job of showing the American attitude towards fascism at the time.

[up]

Francoism is actually pretty complicated in terms of whether or not it's actually fitting the fascist definition per se. Historically Franco leant towards the Carlists at times, other times the Falange, then merged both into a single party upon winning the civil war. He also took care to unite the different right-wing groups under him, then quietly played them off so he could end up on top as caudillo.

I've always viewed Trump as like Mussolini, with the incompetence and bluster taken Up To Eleven. Also, not bald.

edited 6th May '18 7:00:28 PM by TheWildWestPyro

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241371: May 6th 2018 at 6:57:19 PM

[up]Absolutely, sadly the government is currently controlled by either fascists or enablers of fascists. Thankfully due to our institutions and their incompetence our system is still democratic but it's still not conductive with the government taking serious anti-fascist action.

And yes Trump and Mussolini are a very good comparison.

edited 6th May '18 6:57:52 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#241372: May 6th 2018 at 6:58:42 PM

[up]

Honestly I wouldn't mind bringing back the anti-fascist movement back, although in its original terms rather than being a fringe movement by anarchists.

This country needs to learn what it totally united against, and the sacrifices made by those to stop the hatred from spreading. Additionally, this country also needs to learn fascism should stay dead.

Specific emphasis on the American volunteers in the Spanish Civil War, and the G Is across all fronts of WW 2. Plus not only what Mussolini, the Japanese and Hitler's various right-wing allies did, but how to recognize the warning sides of a specifically fascist regime.

edited 6th May '18 7:03:33 PM by TheWildWestPyro

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#241373: May 6th 2018 at 7:02:24 PM

[up] Anti Fascism becoming something that only anarchist do is what IMO harms people from joining to it. Plus, they have a tendency to call fascism to anything to the Right of them.

A lot of people here is anti fascist, but I dont think that most of us are anarchists.

[down] Yeah, is easy to oposse fascism when it wants to kill you and your friends, is harder do it when Fascism want kill people that you dont care.

edited 6th May '18 7:04:38 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241374: May 6th 2018 at 7:02:31 PM

[up][up]I doubt that's really going to happen, we so strongly opposed fascists because they controlled a serious of polities that posed a very real threat to our interests. Modern fascists are internal and much less obvious (generally).

They still need to be opposed but don't expect our massively polarized society to do anything comparable to what was done previously.

edited 6th May '18 7:03:27 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241375: May 6th 2018 at 7:03:56 PM

America has a complicated relationship with anarchism.

Not the least bit because libertarianism is a descendant of it and the militia movement.

So, yes, we live in a country where there are Right Wing Anarchists.

Which....shouldn't exist.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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