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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#241201: May 5th 2018 at 2:58:28 PM

The way my Korean coworker sees it, this Korean deal has been in the making for a long time but got strangled several times by Korean Conservatives. According to her Moon Jae-In is a longtime politician who's been fighting for this kind of deal for a long time, was around for the first attempts at the deal, remembers what the Conservatives did to sabotage it, and has been working for a while behind the scenes trying to avenge his political allies since the failure of the deal involved a lot of corruption and led to a politician's suicide, and now that he's in power, he's playing Trump like a fiddle, sucking up to him while also getting him to sign off on policies that would make South Korea's military stronger and more independent of the US, so that Trump and future US leaders have less ability to meddle in their business anymore.

Right. But the problem with all of these foreign leaders successfully manipulating Trump is that they by doing so, they make Trump look good to anyone who isn't already predisposed to be skeptical of him.

A perfect example was the recent visit by Emmanuel Macron. Macron played Trump like a fiddle, placating his ego and treating him with kids' gloves to try and get him to actually listen and pay attention to important world issues. We can recognize that for what it was, because we've been following along and playing close attention to the developing political situation. But for someone who hasn't?

I had a talk with my mom about Macron's visit, and she was thrilled by it. Her interpretation of the visit was this:

"Macron loves Trump! Did you see how happy he was? I've never seen anyone be so happy to be in a room with Obama. Trump's foreign policy really is working wonders. It's amazing. America is respected again by the world in a way we haven't been in years!"

Trump's narrative, that he's restored the world's respect for our country, becomes strengthened every time one of these world leaders kisses his ass. We see all the chaos and trauma and incompetence behind the scenes, but all they see is the leaders of the free world openly talking about how brilliant and wonderful and amazing Donald Trump is as a leader.

edited 5th May '18 3:02:19 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241202: May 5th 2018 at 3:01:58 PM

[up]And the people willing to buy into that already support Trump, I simply do not see any evidence that brings him success with anyone not already in his base.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#241203: May 5th 2018 at 3:02:52 PM

There are people in this country who are neither hardcore Trumpeteers nor devoted Democrat voters.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AlleyOop Since: Oct, 2010
#241204: May 5th 2018 at 3:06:09 PM

French outrage after US President Trump mimics Paris attackers.

US President Donald Trump has outraged French opinion by suggesting the 2015 attacks on Paris could have been stopped by giving people guns.

He mimicked gunmen summoning and shooting victims one by one, saying "Boom! Come over here!" and using his hand to imitate a gun being fired.

Honestly this is disgusting.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241205: May 5th 2018 at 3:06:52 PM

[up]That... doesn't really address my point. The sole group that is stopping his approval rating from going any lower are Republicans, and I see zero evidence that this will lead to independents backing Trump.

Because frankly foreign leaders making nice with the President is hardly some massive boon that will boost one's approval rating, even if it does benefit him I see even less reason to believe that it will offer any substantial benefit.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#241206: May 5th 2018 at 3:08:07 PM

If baseless praise from foreign leaders is the swing factor for someone, they were always going to go Trump.

Those soundbites rally up his base, but everyone who can be swayed has already been swayed.

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241207: May 5th 2018 at 3:09:17 PM

Quite, I could imagine this improving his approval rating with Republican leaning independents but such people were already mostly on his side anyway so it's hardly a significantly bonus.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#241208: May 5th 2018 at 3:11:11 PM

If the only people who ever agreed with Trump's policies were his unshakable base, his approval rating wouldn't fluctuate the way it does.

Not every Republican is a Trump cultist. Not everyone who ever agrees with a decision he makes is a Trump cultist. Not every poll is "The dedicated Trump cultists on one side, everyone else on the other." The very idea that only Trump cultists weigh in positively on him is another example of the same misplaced Democratic optimism that led to Hillary Clinton's Unbreakble Blue Wall.

We will never beat Trump if we cannot accept the basic concept that there are a lot of people in the middle ground, watching the news and deciding what to believe or whose side to be on based on whatever just happened today.

Blind, hopeless optimism that every American has a flawless Bullshit Filter is why we lost. We need to stop putting our hopes and faith in that. It's long past time that the Left stopped treating Trump like a powerless gag opponent.

edited 5th May '18 3:12:39 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#241209: May 5th 2018 at 3:13:26 PM

French outrage after US President Trump mimics Paris attackers.

US President Donald Trump has outraged French opinion by suggesting the 2015 attacks on Paris could have been stopped by giving people guns.

He mimicked gunmen summoning and shooting victims one by one, saying "Boom! Come over here!" and using his hand to imitate a gun being fired.

Honestly this is disgusting.

I don't even...

We know the answer.

Inter arma enim silent leges
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#241210: May 5th 2018 at 3:16:52 PM

Me Watches George Carlin

Starts groaning and whining

edited 5th May '18 3:17:19 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#241211: May 5th 2018 at 3:16:57 PM

Presidential approval ratings fluctuate because of bad weather and what's on TV. Unless we're seeing 10 point plus spikes those small fluctuations aren't indicative of much.

They should have sent a poet.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#241212: May 5th 2018 at 3:17:31 PM

At this point i think we need to stop giving Trump attention,it's obvious he knows his behaviour causes outrage as t's the whole point because it appeals to his supporters

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#241213: May 5th 2018 at 3:23:14 PM

Yeah, Trump is the ultimate "lets trigger Liberals" in a country where Liberal is basically "everyone with a moral conscience".

edited 5th May '18 3:23:27 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241214: May 5th 2018 at 3:25:10 PM

If the only people who ever agreed with Trump's policies were his unshakable base, his approval rating wouldn't fluctuate the way it does.
No-one said that his base was unshakable just that people who would be convinced by that are people that are already leaning towards him, the best they can be convinced to do is stay home. Thus it's more than possible for Republicans and Republican leaning independents to disapprove of him and then approve later when he does something that they like (like not crash the economy). Which doesn't contradict our point at-all.

Not every Republican is a Trump cultist. Not everyone who ever agrees with a decision he makes is a Trump cultist. Not every poll is "The dedicated Trump cultists on one side, everyone else on the other." The very idea that only Trump cultists weigh in positively on him is another example of the same misplaced Democratic optimism that led to Hillary Clinton's Unbreakble Blue Wall.
What nonsense.

Yes not every Republican is a Trump cultist, just most of them. Now if just 1/10 of his base stays home come midterms or 2020 then he could face serious trouble but this isn't really related to the conversation at hand, it's more than accurate to say that Republicans as a group are loyal to Trump. Because they are.

We will never beat Trump if we cannot accept the basic concept that there are a lot of people in the middle ground, watching the news and deciding what to believe or whose side to be on based on whatever just happened today.
You have failed to provide a single shred of credible evidence to support your idea that leaders manipulating Trump and making nice with him will somehow offer him a substantial benefit. Thus I think it's safe to say that I don't take this claim very seriously.

Blind, hopeless optimism that every American has a flawless Bullshit Filter is why we lost. We need to stop putting our hopes and faith in that. It's long past time that the Left stopped treating Trump like a powerless gag opponent.
Ok this is a gigantic strawman and a clear signal of how weak your argument is, I have not claimed once that every American has a flawless Bullshit Filter and the state of our politics (and common human nature) is a clear argument against that idea.

Just that your arguments that leaders making nice with Trump will somehow offer him meaningful benefits is extremely unconvincing.

I have not once employed optimism blind or otherwise and even if you disagree with my position I would strongly prefer that you avoid unjustifiably smearing me.

edited 5th May '18 3:27:04 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#241215: May 5th 2018 at 3:30:22 PM

meaninfull? not, but it get hard to disprove that as argument about why trump is bullshit.

Granted the problem with that is that it require trump to fail AT EVERYTHING in order for dems to win, which lower anything to "did trumpt not fuck everything? them the dems are crazy".

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#241216: May 5th 2018 at 3:39:26 PM

This Maddow segment is worth a watch. It puts together some of the Rosenstein stuff, and lays out a possible strategy for dealing with the Republicans in the House who want to in his words "extort the Department of Justice".

.

edited 5th May '18 5:41:32 PM by megaeliz

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#241217: May 5th 2018 at 5:19:08 PM

[up]x3 There's such a thing as being TOO optimistic, you know. I think Tobias's concern is legitimate. We have to stay vigilant or we won't win 2018 and 2020.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#241218: May 5th 2018 at 5:24:06 PM

[up]Except I'm not optimistic and my arguments have not been rooted in any form of optimistic logic, furthermore I have not argued against vigilance.

I absolutely adore how some people seem incapable of arguing against anything I've actually said smile

edited 5th May '18 5:24:21 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#241219: May 5th 2018 at 6:48:32 PM

How useful is foreign policy to boosting politicians, anyway? I mean, Winston Churchill was out on his ass shortly after WWII. The first and most competent Bush lost his re-election campaign after overseeing the first Iraq war.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#241220: May 5th 2018 at 6:51:18 PM

Most people don't really understand foreign policy and as far as elections go, it's mostly fodder for the coastal intelligentsia and political set. A strong domestic platform will beat a strong international platform, every time, and Trump is mediocre on both counts. Churchill is probably the most illustrative example of a politician thrown out on his ass because he couldn't — or wouldn't — deliver on the domestic front.

edited 5th May '18 6:53:40 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#241221: May 5th 2018 at 7:11:12 PM

Bush senior is another example, he delivered some great foreign policy moments, but he raised taxes so out he went.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#241222: May 5th 2018 at 7:23:05 PM

[up]That. Bush Senior was torpedoed by his own party for raising taxes, not his actions in the Gulf. The entitlement of the GOP at the time led them to shred him publicly, confident they had enough of a grip on the White House that they could afford to trash him and turn him into a puppet for term 2. Then Bill showed up and promised to 'do conservatism right', and people voted for the guy who had not just raised taxes and been dumped on by his own party.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241223: May 5th 2018 at 7:30:06 PM

George H.W. Bush didn't overthrow Saddam because he was afraid of the consequences for destabilizing the reason.

I think it would have been dramatically better to do it then.

But he had a far better idea of international relations and handling these things.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#241224: May 5th 2018 at 7:43:44 PM

Speaking of bush senior, I wonder how modern republicans will react if a democrat “steals” a second term from trump? Will they radicalize again or breathe a sigh of relief?

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#241225: May 5th 2018 at 7:54:05 PM

Will they radicalize again or breathe a sigh of relief?
Again? That would imply they stopped being radicalized.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw

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