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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241126: May 4th 2018 at 2:04:50 PM

[up][up]Yeah, people not dying of starvation is pretty easy to laud.

[up]As for the New Deal, basically it wasn't one thing but a lot of things. Think of it less like a specific program and more like an agenda.

edited 4th May '18 2:05:25 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#241127: May 4th 2018 at 2:12:39 PM

[up] The segregation and the effects it had on generations of minorities though...not so much.

It's kind of like a parent deciding to feed one kid while letting the other go hungry. Not because there isn't enough food for both, but because the kid who is being fed would raise a fuss if they thought for a second that their sibling was getting more.

And then years down the line, the kid who got fed bullies and mocks the other for being weaker, conveniently ignoring that the years of malnutrition may have had something to do with it.

edited 4th May '18 2:17:32 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#241128: May 4th 2018 at 2:22:51 PM

The New Deal was basically a series of programs through the 1930s and 1940s that brought the US out of the Great Depression. Spending for economic stimulus, banking and financial sector reform, and public works. It notably created the Social Security program.

While it did a great deal of good, it's rightfully criticized for leaving minorities out of the economic recovery it was supposed to create.

edited 4th May '18 2:23:43 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241129: May 4th 2018 at 2:27:26 PM

Yeah. I totally agree.

Is it possible to laud the good it did while criticizing the bad, though, or does the entire program only exist in a state of appalling because of the wrongs it did?

Serious question.

edited 4th May '18 2:27:39 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#241130: May 4th 2018 at 2:34:52 PM

[up] The problem is that too many people seem to ignore the bad entirely or underestimate just how bad it was.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#241131: May 4th 2018 at 2:37:24 PM

The situation in Korea worked in spite of Trump's actions, not because of them. This isn't a stopped clock situation.

Quite. But the difference between the two can often be blurry and ripe for interpretation, and that is where the danger lies. It would be trivially easy for the Right to spin this as the victory that proves Trump's strong-man politics really do work.

To the average joe, this is the chain of events:

  • Trump: Little Rocket Man's a maniac and a coward!
  • Left: Trump's words are dangerous and insane.
  • Right: Trump's a real man and he's going to beat Kim with his giant, throbbing patriotism!
  • Left: Seriously, you have no idea how dangerous this is.
  • News: KOREAN WAR SUDDENLY ENDS
  • Right: What'd I say?

The optics of this are devastating to anyone who believes in rational politics, and Moon Jae-in directly crediting Trump's insane rhetoric and saying he deserves the Nobel Prize isn't helping.

edited 4th May '18 2:38:20 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#241132: May 4th 2018 at 2:41:27 PM

Yeah, I also think Moon genuinely believes it.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#241133: May 4th 2018 at 2:41:56 PM

Is it possible to laud the good it did while criticizing the bad, though, or does the entire program only exist in a state of appalling because of the wrongs it did?
The good that the New Deal did for the nation, IMO, outweighs the negatives - which, IIRC, are mainly things it didn't do. FDR's terms as president similarly have the good outweighed by the bad, but he was responsible for some shady shitnote .

If anything, I would argue the country needs a New New Dealnote  that is more for American minorities (and arguably even illegal immigrants). Given the complaining coupled with the utter lack of action by politicians in regards to our infrastructure, a New Deal that focused on government hiring to rebuild infrastructure would be a boon to everyone but the 1% (and fuck those guys anyway).

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#241134: May 4th 2018 at 2:42:21 PM

@Imca: As others have said the New Deal was a singular thing, but a series of different programs and laws. They were mostly job programs like the Works Progress Administration as well as big infrastructure projects like the Tenseness Valley Authority Act.

A lot of these things actually did not last very long, either being cut down due to (likely unecessary) budget concerns, political backlash from Republicans and Southern Democrats,and the Supreme Court just outright declaring things unconstitutional. Lots of other things also never made it off the planning board, like a Universal healthcare program that was deemed politically untenable due to the need to desegregate the hospitals.

Probably the biggest thing to have survived was the Social Security Administration, which until about the 70s had gone through periodic expansions to cover more people and expand the benefits it offered.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#241135: May 4th 2018 at 2:42:56 PM

[up][up] Exactly. Just because the execution was flawed, doesn't mean the idea isn't sound.

[up] The infrastructure was another of the longest lasting legacies of the New Deal. In fact, there's a park created through the WPA program not to far from my house.

edited 4th May '18 2:50:21 PM by megaeliz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#241136: May 4th 2018 at 2:44:40 PM

It probably also doesn't help that some of the same people whose family's past generations benefited from the New Deal also complain about Affirmative Action.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TyeDyeWildebeest Unreasonably Quirky from Big Rock Candy Mountain Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: How does it feel to treat me like you do?
Unreasonably Quirky
#241137: May 4th 2018 at 2:44:55 PM

@Drake: TBF, I understand why Moon said what he did. Seems he’s figured out that the best way to get Trump to do what you want is to kiss his ass.

edited 4th May '18 2:45:24 PM by TyeDyeWildebeest

No beer?! But if there's no beer, then there's no beef or beans!
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#241138: May 4th 2018 at 2:49:58 PM

On the subject of polls, we're pretty much at a point where everyone who can be swayed has been swayed. 5-point fluctuations in popularity polls are well within what we'd expect to see in this situation. Let's not forget that Obama's polls rose briefly before the Democrats got swept in midterms that year. If you're so on the fence about Trump that this is what tipped you into his camp, you were going to vote Republican in the midterms anyways.

And let's not forget that nothing has actually happened in Korea yet. The war isn't over. They took a big step and had a good talk, but it all comes down to the upcoming summit, which Trump will have to personally negotiate at. No doubt that's the reason Moon has been buttering him up, because he's shown an alarming level of incompetence with things like this.

They should have sent a poet.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#241139: May 4th 2018 at 3:04:40 PM

Remember how I mentioned that the Justice Department believes that some Mo C want to use their oversight authority to gain intelligence to give the trump team or other otherwise undermine the investigation?

Exclusive: Nunes demands Justice Department records. Then he doesn't read them.

House Intelligence Chairman Devin Nunes was livid.

For months, he had been demanding a fully uncensored version of a highly sensitive document from the Justice Department explaining how the Russia investigation began in 2016, but he wasn't getting it.

As the standoff escalated, Nunes began warning Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein — the man in charge of special counsel Robert Mueller's Russia investigation — that he could face contempt of Congress, or even worse.

"We're not going to just hold in contempt," Nunes said to Fox News last month. "We will have a plan to hold in contempt and to impeach."

Nunes had already been offered time to review a copy of the electronic communication formally authorizing the FBI's investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election, but he had publicly demanded to see what was behind certain blacked out lines.

Facing the growing pressure, and outrage from President Donald Trump, Rosenstein finally relented in early April — and granted Nunes and Rep. Trey Gowdy of South Carolina access to the document with only minimal redactions to protect the name of a foreign country and agent, along with all members of the House Intelligence Committee.

But when the pair arrived at the Justice Department to review the electronic communication, officials were caught off-guard by his next move. Nunes — sitting with a copy of the document in an unopened folder directly in front of him — opted not to read it, according to four sources with knowledge of the situation.

Gowdy, chairman of the House Oversight Committee, reviewed a copy and since then nearly a dozen other lawmakers have gone to the Justice Department to read the document, sources say.

As Nunes has moved aggressively to publicly sow doubt about the Russia investigation, the moment marked at least the second time that he has demanded sensitive documents from the Justice Department, only to choose not to read them — allowing his staff or Gowdy to pore through the materials instead. The California Republican admitted in February that he did not read any applications under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to monitor former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page.

His supporters say there's nothing untoward about a chairman being briefed by his staff. But critics say it's another sign Nunes is merely interested in wielding his power to target his political enemies and give cover to Trump, rather than independently learning about the nuances of a complex investigation.

Asked twice in recent days if he personally had read the document that he demanded detailing the start of the Russia probe, Nunes pointedly refused to answer.

"You know I don't talk about committee business," he told CNN.

Asked later for a yes-or-no answer, Nunes repeated the same refrain: "You know I don't talk to you about this stuff."

A Nunes spokesman also would not say if his boss read the documents he's demanded from the department.

"I admire CNN's unrivaled ability to faithfully produce foolish hit pieces on Republicans that are spoon-fed to them by anonymous sources," Nunes spokesman Jack Langer said in a statement, providing no further comment.

After being briefed on the documents about the start of the Russia probe, Nunes began to raise major alarms, telling Fox News there was no basis to launch the investigation in the first place, saying there were "major problems" with the investigation.

Yet Gowdy has not gone nearly so far.

Indeed, unlike Nunes, Gowdy has defended the Mueller investigation amid criticism within his own party.

Gowdy spokeswoman Amanda Gonzalez said her boss has "read everything he has been asked to read," including the electronic communication with minimal redactions and the FISA documents about the surveillance on Page. She said he "fully supports" the Russia investigation and the asking of "fair but firm" questions of officials in the Executive Branch.

"While he was not surprised by what he read, Chairman Gowdy does have additional questions for the drafter of the EC," Gonzalez said, referring to the electronic communication. "As Chairman Gowdy has said many times, he fully supports Special Counsel Mueller's investigation, and believes Mueller should be given the time, the independence, and the resources to conduct a thorough investigation."

Democrats say being briefed on crucial documents is insufficient.

"You have to go and read this stuff, you can't just get briefed by people who are making it their crusade to undermine the investigation," California Rep. Eric Swalwell, a Democratic member of the committee, told CNN when another GOP member, Rep. Peter King of New York, said he had been briefed by Nunes' staff on the document. "I just don't understand why they wouldn't go over and read it themselves. I mean, the Department of Justice is 10 blocks away from here, and it took me 90 minutes to read."

The Justice Department declined to comment.

A pattern of demands

Nunes took a similar tack when he pushed the Justice Department to give him full access to classified materials regarding the dossier on Trump and Russia, namely the FISA application to monitor Page, who advised the Trump campaign on foreign policy issues. After months of furious lobbying, where House Speaker Paul Ryan got involved as well, the Justice Department ultimately allowed lawmakers to review the FISA application.

Initially, the Justice Department let the House Intelligence Committee and other panels designate one Republican and one Democratic lawmaker, along with two staff members, to review more than 1,000 pages of classified materials. Nunes designated Gowdy to do so on his behalf. That review later became the basis of the so-called, "Nunes memo," which Nunes and Trump seized on to accuse the Justice Department and FBI of improperly monitoring Page just weeks before the 2016 election.

"The committee has discovered serious violations of the public trust," Nunes said after the memo's release.

At least 19 lawmakers have personally reviewed the FISA application at the Justice Department, according to sources. Nunes' senior staff has reviewed the records. But Nunes still has not done so.

Nunes, however, has been coy about whether he's personally read the documents he's demanded.

After heading to the Justice Department to see the electronic communication, Nunes left the impression he had personally reviewed the document. In an interview with Fox Business last month, the first question was whether he had seen the document.

"That's correct," Nunes responded, adding "it took us a long time" to access the document.

Yet, he also mentioned on multiple occasions that his "investigators" had reviewed the record.

"So what we found now, after the investigators have reviewed it, is that in fact there was no intelligence," Nunes said to Fox Business host Maria Bartiromo, calling it a "major problem."

Asked if that meant there was no official intelligence to start the Russia probe, Nunes said, "I think that's the point. We don't understand, we've never understood. We have access to these finished intelligence products and we've never seen one" reason to start the probe.

Republicans and Democrats have come away from viewing the electronic communication with completely opposite views about its significance. Neither party has discussed the details of what's in it, however, because the document is classified.

"Having reviewed that document, the FBI had ample reason to initiate an investigation," said Rep. Jim Himes, a Connecticut Democrat on the committee. "Would the information have convicted in a court of law? No, but that's not the standard when you start an investigation. It would have been an act of gross negligence based on the evidence at hand had the FBI declined to follow up on the leads that they had."

"I want to meet the FBI supervisor who would not open an investigation with the information that they had," Swalwell said. "The information that started the investigation was alarming, and the evidence that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power was voluminous."

Page has acknowledged that he had "brief interactions" with a low-level Russian official in 2013, but has vehemently denied any allegations of wrongdoing.

Several Republicans on the House Intelligence Committee say the electronic communication shows the documentation for the start of the Russia investigation was unfounded.

"It's a fair question: What evidence did you have to start this investigation?" said Rep. Chris Stewart, a Utah Republican who sits on the committee. "Well, the answer isn't very good."

King, who also sits on the panel, said that it showed the start of the investigation was "baseless."

"To me, there was no real basis for the investigation to begin in the first place," King said. The FBI was "using a backdoor process to rely on data, which did not rise to any intelligence level. Rumors, rather than intelligence."

King said at the time that he hadn't yet read the document, but had been briefed by Nunes' staff.

What's the chances that it's Nunes?

edited 4th May '18 3:11:07 PM by megaeliz

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#241140: May 4th 2018 at 3:19:52 PM

Just for humor, I saw a typo'd headline claiming that Hawaii needs better missile defense because the Chinese have "Medium-Rage" missiles.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#241141: May 4th 2018 at 4:39:11 PM

The main thing about the New Deal was that it was an old fashioned government program—in that the Federal Government directly hired people to do work, paying their saleries and materials. Nowadays, as for example the Obama stimulus package, when the gov. spends money it redirects it to state governments or to contractors, who them hire the people and do the work.

Direct spending is more efficient, both in terms of how much work is done for the dollar, and in terms of the economic stimulus it creates. But the Republicans wont stand for it.

BTW—Not necessarily defending FDR per se, but dont forget he was also responsible for some key civil rights legislation.

edited 4th May '18 4:39:50 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#241142: May 4th 2018 at 4:45:31 PM

[up] It's also important to remember than both parties had northern and Southern wings at the time, and even though FDR was part of the northern Liberal Wing, in order to pass his agenda, they had to gain the support of the Dixiecrats as well, who well, to put it bluntly, were generally more overtly racist.

And a stereotype that we need to kill is that the Federal Government is ineffecient.

edited 4th May '18 4:48:03 PM by megaeliz

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#241143: May 4th 2018 at 4:50:07 PM

Direct spending is more efficient, both in terms of how much work is done for the dollar, and in terms of the economic stimulus it creates. But the Republicans wont stand for it.
Because then how would they give kickbacks to corporations?
Not necessarily defending FDR per se, but dont forget he was also responsible for some key civil rights legislation.
I thought Truman did more of the civil rights stuff than FDR? Either way I still think FDR was, on the balance, a good President.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#241144: May 4th 2018 at 4:56:38 PM

Oh, Truman did do more, but FDR did it first, and he deserves some credit for that. Doesnt make up for the internment camps, but still...

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#241145: May 4th 2018 at 4:58:08 PM

Not sure if this was posted a while back or what...

Kim Reynolds, governor of Iowa, signed a law banning any abortions if a fetal heartbeat is detected or at around six weeks of pregnancy.

"We will challenge this law with absolutely everything we have on behalf of our patients because Iowa will not go back," Suzanna de Baca, president and CEO of Planned Parenthood of the Heartland, said in a statement.

Trump decides, yeah, I've got your back, NRA.

“Thanks to your activism and dedication, you have an administration that is fighting to protect your Second Amendment,” Trump told a receptive crowd. “Your Second Amendment rights are under siege. But they will never, ever be under siege as long as I’m your president.”

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#241146: May 4th 2018 at 4:58:56 PM

I mean, with FDR he really had his work cut out for him: the great depression, WWII, all while suffering polio. So overall I'd say he did ok.

Leviticus 19:34
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#241147: May 4th 2018 at 5:05:38 PM

[up][up][up] FDR desegregated the Military, right? Along with a few other things?

[down]Thanks, I wasn't sure.

edited 4th May '18 5:08:49 PM by megaeliz

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
Kaiseror Since: Jul, 2016
#241149: May 4th 2018 at 5:10:25 PM

[up][up][up][up] Wonder how much they're bribing him?

speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#241150: May 4th 2018 at 6:02:58 PM

If The Media Wants to Refute Trump’s Falsehoods, It Has to Stop Reporting Faulty Bombshells. Basically, NBC screwing up the story that the FBI wasn't actually listening to the content of phone calls between Cohen and Trump, but merely keeping pen register, only further validates Trump's hatred of reporters that are critical of him. The last thing he needs is an excuse.

edited 4th May '18 6:03:57 PM by speedyboris


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