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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#240476: Apr 30th 2018 at 5:15:48 PM

[up]Pretty much.

Also in the case of Sargon,Armour skeptic and many other, they didnt just spawn out of nowhere, they were the result of many skeptic comunities deciding they didnt have to be nice with religious conservative anymore and take the kid gloves.

I think somewhat down the line it cultivate the idea that being a jerk was cool becaue they were aceptable targets, and as long you can prove you are right, everything was OK.

Is not a surprise they turn against Feminism is usually pretty serious about their stuff, in part because of the subject matter and in part because of having a hard time taken seriously.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Raptorslash Since: Oct, 2010
#240477: Apr 30th 2018 at 5:42:37 PM

People like Thunderf00t are good examples of how a community some outsiders assume is progressive because of its stance on one issue (organized religion) is actually not progressive in many other areas.

The New Atheist "movement", from my understanding, is actually fairly conservative - a lot of their big names, like Penn and Teller and Michael Shermer, are libertarians. A lot of them are misogynistic (there's a serious problem with sexual assault and members of the community making excuses for it) and Islamophobic.

As far as I can tell, the big exception among the male New Atheists is PZ Meyers, who isn't really involved with the others IIRC.

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#240479: Apr 30th 2018 at 5:56:26 PM

[up][up]

Meyers is indeed one of the only leading figures from the New Atheism movement who isn't a shithead. I've argued before that the New Atheists were partially responsible for the alt right rising, and I still stand by that. Dawkins might oppose them but he's still a racist, sexist shithead, and Harris outright supported Ted Cruz and Ben Carson. If Hitchens were alive, he'd be on the alt right's side. They already worship him as a "free speech" defender.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#240480: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:02:26 PM

[up]Eh, while the New Atheist movement indeed turned into a flaming shitshow rather quickly I'm not sure they hold any special responsibility for the alt-right. Proto-Fascism and Reationaryism aren't exactly concepts that didn't exist before them, New Atheists or not I think the rise of alt-right probably would've happened regardless of what they did.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#240481: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:07:22 PM

[up][up]Dawkings come more as one of those outclass guys who are guy at good thing but not others, and Hitchens....I disagree, the alt right workship him but consider he was a bisexual men and alt right is Very prone to conspiracy theorist...I feel they would love him until he said something not so nice about Trump.

[up]While they are true, I have notices they are usually three corps members of the alt right: Memes who usually dosent have any ideology beyond "trig the lib" and explote after gamergate, they are the most annoying and less consistent, Milo is your typical memer

T Hen you have the skeptic, most of the them are alt right not because they share nazi or white supremacy ideology but because their hated of SJW and lefism is so hard that they often fall into the Typical Alt right taking point, Sargon is a good example of this.

And last but not less are the "nice nazis" who often engage in a again of "I just want to be nice with you", they are a minority in general but relies in confunsing others about their motvies to carrying on entyhing they do.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:12:22 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#240482: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:08:49 PM

I'm not saying it's a special responsibility, there's several different things that went on to lead into the alt right. Regardless, they had a degree of responsibility through giving asshats like Carl Benjamin and TJ Kincaid voices in their "skeptic" community, and Dawkins and Harris both fed into those ideas. There's a link between the two.

[up]

Hitchens defended Holocaust deniers by claiming their speech should be protected and his claims that "women are biologically incapable of being funny" are touted around all the damn time by sexist assholes, not to mention he supported the War in Iraq. If he was alive, they'd be all over him.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:10:40 PM by AdricDePsycho

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
Raptorslash Since: Oct, 2010
#240483: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:13:27 PM

I'd argue that communities like 4chan and Encyclopedia Dramatica, and the general attitudes they cultivated, also played a major role in the rise of the alt-right. The alt-right used them as recruiting grounds.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:14:12 PM by Raptorslash

AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#240484: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:14:44 PM

Don't forget Reddit. Reddit also played a part. Maybe smaller than 4chan but subs like Kotaku in Action were also recruiting grounds.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#240485: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:15:19 PM

Reddit played a pretty big part IMO.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#240486: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:15:32 PM

To be more specific I would say the edgy, condescending and pseudo-intellectual provocateur style of people Carlgon and Kincaid are contributors to that same attitude being so commonplace in the internet, and it's that exact attitude that facilitated the rise of the alt-right.

Partially [nja]'d but places like 4chan are also big contributors.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:16:04 PM by Draghinazzo

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#240487: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:18:15 PM

[up]Part of that was born in the 2000 and was push by the atheistic comunity, who fight the idea of religious convention being "sacred" adn therefore above of all taking or suspiction, in this case I cant be surprise if hitchen allow Holocasut deniers by the same principles because it would be kinda akin of shitting on ones bed.

Is just that eventually the provocautor styes fell and become....well, this.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#240488: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:20:13 PM

Hitchens was arguing in defense of Holocaust deniers before the 2000's. He was defensive of David Irving despite the guy being a legitimate racist piece of shit.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#240489: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:21:18 PM

New Atheism played a role in the rise of the alt-right because their foreign policy outlook is quintessentially neoconservative, with the requisite Islamophobia. To be fair, not all of them are right-wing. Dawkins is at his worst, a really tin-eared Lib Dem and Daniel Dennett has always been left-wing, but the backlash against organized religion they spearheaded has become basically laser-focused on radical Islam, which means they've become bedfellows of Republicans.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Raptorslash Since: Oct, 2010
#240490: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:22:13 PM

Things like Gamergate, the Rabid Puppies, and the Slymepit also seem in hindsight like testing grounds for what they did later.

I've seen seemingly reasonable and liberal-minded people swayed by the rhetoric of people like Milo and Sargon, which is actually kind of depressing. At least some of them had bad experiences on other parts of the Internet and responded by becoming increasingly right wing.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:25:24 PM by Raptorslash

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#240491: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:24:04 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah but he become the atheist prvocautor par none IN the 2000-2010 as whole.

And part of that is hitchen and other always argue about the idea of the idea of confrontation, the idea that if you expose someone as piece of shit they cant keep their shit and flee.

But that concept as fell out of favor on the left(Well, it depend, some leftiest like Contrapoint argue in favor confrontation) while it become a thing in the right.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:26:22 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
ConstipatedWaffle For The Most Ridley-culous Cause from The Edge Of Insanity Since: Apr, 2013 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
For The Most Ridley-culous Cause
#240492: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:25:40 PM

Anecdotally, I go to a ridiculously conservative high school (IIRC my county voted 86% for Trump?) and it seems the Trump administration has fostered a strong anti-Trump conservatism movement. Certainly haven't seen nearly as much fervent support for the Republicans in the past year or so as I used to. It's not that they're all switching to supporting the Democrats so much as becoming incredibly apathetic to politics as a whole or leaning more towards libertarianism.

Everyone's still super conservative of course (moreso fiscally than socially) but it does seem to be an anecdotal counterpoint to the idea that Generation Z trends more conservative.

"And kung fu is a terrible way to run a company" - alliterator
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#240493: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:25:41 PM

[up][up][up]Gamergate was basically a far-right recruitment drive, if not in intent then in practice. There's not much doubt about now.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:26:04 PM by Draghinazzo

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#240494: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:28:14 PM

[up]I will said is less a recrument drive and more the first of many battles the new cultural wars the decade would come.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#240495: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:28:41 PM

Mind you, Ayn rand was the original Neo-Atheist asshole. Which makes her reverence by the Far Right all the more inexplicable.

Except it seems like everything I loathe in religion (as a religious person I loathe the Religious Right), anti-authority (libertarianism), and economics (everything there) is combined into some sort of Anti-Me that somehow rules America.

edited 30th Apr '18 6:29:24 PM by CharlesPhipps

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AdricDePsycho Rock on, Gold Dust Woman from Never Going Back Again Since: Oct, 2014 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Rock on, Gold Dust Woman
#240496: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:29:21 PM

Definitely a recruitment drive. Make up bigoted propaganda, go around pretending you're the "real" good guys, and use it to brainwash and convert people to your cause.

Have you any dreams you'd like to sell?
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#240497: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:31:24 PM

[up][up]As a atheist and kinda of admired of Hitchens and others, im dumbfold and sad to see the atheist movement fall in line with the alt right, a movement fill with the same crackpot, conspiracy theorist, psuedo sciene and all other crap they spend the last decade mocking.

It kinda break the hearth a little.

[up]It was more spontanous thing than that, even Milo come to be asociated with the GG half way the controversy started, before he was pretty disdaing of gamers, calling them "losers who need a life".

edited 30th Apr '18 6:33:42 PM by unknowing

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#240498: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:32:24 PM

So what are the questions? (will be in two parts)

Questions related to Michael T. Flynn, the former national security adviser

  • What did you know about phone calls that Mr. Flynn made with the Russian ambassador, Sergey I. Kislyak, in late December 2016?

These questions revolve around whether Mr. Trump tried to obstruct justice to protect Mr. Flynn from prosecution. His phone calls with Mr. Kislyak are at the heart of that inquiry.

During the calls, Mr. Flynn urged Russia not to overreact to sanctions just announced by the Obama administration. But Mr. Trump’s aides publicly denied that sanctions were discussed and, when questioned by the F.B.I., Mr. Flynn denied it, as well. Mr. Mueller wants to know whether Mr. Flynn was operating on Mr. Trump’s behalf. Prosecutors may already know the answer: Mr. Flynn has pleaded guilty to lying and is cooperating with investigators.

  • What was your reaction to news reports on Jan. 12, 2017, and Feb. 8-9, 2017?

In January, the Washington Post columnist David Ignatius revealed Mr. Flynn’s phone calls with Mr. Kislyak. Mr. Ignatius questioned whether those conversations had violated law prohibiting private citizens from attempting to undermine American policies. In February, The Washington Post revealed the true nature of Mr. Flynn’s conversations with Mr. Kislyak.

Mr. Mueller wants to know, among other things, whether Mr. Trump feared that his national security adviser had broken the law and then tried to shield him from consequences.

  • What did you know about Sally Yates’s meetings about Mr. Flynn?

Ms. Yates, the acting attorney general for the first weeks of the Trump administration, twice warned the White House that Mr. Flynn was lying, and those lies made him vulnerable to Russian blackmail. No one from the White House has ever said how much Mr. Trump knew about those warnings.

  • How was the decision made to fire Mr. Flynn on Feb. 13, 2017?

Eighteen days after Ms. Yates’s warning, Mr. Flynn was asked to resign. The White House said that Mr. Trump lost confidence in Mr. Flynn because he had lied. But the White House has never fully explained why, after learning about the lie, officials waited so long to act.

  • After the resignations, what efforts were made to reach out to Mr. Flynn about seeking immunity or possible pardon?

The Times recently revealed that, when Mr. Flynn began considering cooperating with the F.B.I., Mr. Trump’s lawyers floated the idea of a pardon. Mr. Mueller wants to know why.

Questions related to James B. Comey, the former F.B.I. director

  • What was your opinion of Mr. Comey during the transition?

The questions about Mr. Comey relate to whether Mr. Trump fired Mr. Comey last year to shield Mr. Flynn, or anyone else, from prosecution. Mr. Trump has denied that, saying he fired Mr. Comey because of his mishandling of the F.B.I.’s investigation into Hillary Clinton’s use of a private email server.

This question is important because, if Mr. Trump truly was upset about the Clinton investigation, he would have shown an early distaste for Mr. Comey.

  • What did you think about Mr. Comey’s intelligence briefing on Jan. 6, 2017, about Russian election interference?

The briefing revealed that American intelligence agencies had concluded that Russian operatives meddled in the election to hurt Mrs. Clinton and to boost Mr. Trump. Mr. Trump has repeatedly cast doubt on these conclusions and said he believes the Russian president, Vladimir V. Putin, who denies any interference.

  • What was your reaction to Mr. Comey’s briefing that day about other intelligence matters?

This question addresses documents written by a retired British spy, Christopher Steele, who said that Russia had gathered compromising information on Mr. Trump. The documents, which became known as the Steele Dossier, also claim that the Trump campaign had ties to the Russian government. Mr. Comey privately briefed Mr. Trump about these documents.

  • What was the purpose of your Jan. 27, 2017, dinner with Mr. Comey, and what was said?

A few weeks after his briefing, Mr. Comey was called to the White House for a private dinner. Mr. Comey’s notes say that Mr. Trump raised concerns about the Steele Dossier and said he needed loyalty from his F.B.I. director. This question touches on Mr. Trump’s true motivation for firing Mr. Comey: Was he dismissed because he was not loyal and would not shut down an F.B.I. investigation?

  • What was the purpose of your Feb. 14, 2017, meeting with Mr. Comey, and what was said?

That was a key moment. Mr. Comey testified that the president told him, “I hope you can see your way clear to letting this go, to letting Flynn go.” Mr. Trump has denied this.

  • What did you know about the F.B.I.’s investigation into Mr. Flynn and Russia in the days leading up to Mr. Comey’s testimony on March 20, 2017

Mr. Comey’s testimony publicly confirmed that the F.B.I. was investigating members of the Trump campaign for possible coordination with Russia. Mr. Mueller wants to know what role that revelation played in Mr. Comey’s firing.

  • What did you do in reaction to the March 20 testimony? Describe your contacts with intelligence officials.

In the aftermath, The Post reported, Mr. Trump asked the United States’ top intelligence official, Daniel Coats, to pressure Mr. Comey to back off his investigation. Mr. Mueller wants to ask Mr. Trump about his contacts with Mr. Coats as well as the C.I.A.’s director at the time, Mike Pompeo, and the National Security Agency’s director, Michael S. Rogers. The conversations could reflect Mr. Trump’s growing frustration with Mr. Comey — not about the Clinton case, but about his refusal to shut down the Russia inquiry.

  • What did you think and do in reaction to the news that the special counsel was speaking to Mr. Rogers, Mr. Pompeo and Mr. Coats?

It is not clear whether Mr. Mueller knows something specific about Mr. Trump’s reaction to these interviews, but the question shows that Mr. Mueller is keenly interested in how Mr. Trump responded to each step of his investigation.

  • What was the purpose of your calls to Mr. Comey on March 30 and April 11, 2017?

Mr. Comey said that Mr. Trump called twice to ask him to say publicly that he was not under F.B.I. investigation. In the second call, Mr. Comey said, the president added: “I have been very loyal to you, very loyal. We had that thing, you know.”

  • What was the purpose of your April 11, 2017, statement to Maria Bartiromo?

While the White House ultimately said Mr. Comey was fired for breaking with Justice Department policy and discussing the Clinton investigation, Mr. Trump expressed no such qualms in an interview with Ms. Bartiromo of Fox Business Network. “Director Comey was very, very good to Hillary Clinton, that I can tell you,” he said. “If he weren’t, she would be, right now, going to trial.”

  • What did you think and do about Mr. Comey’s May 3, 2017, testimony?

In this Senate appearance, Mr. Comey described his handling of the Clinton investigation in detail. Mr. Comey was fired soon after. Mr. Mueller’s question suggests he wants to know why Mr. Trump soured.

  • Regarding the decision to fire Mr. Comey: When was it made? Why? Who played a role?

Over the past several months, Mr. Mueller has asked White House officials for the back story, and whether the public justification was accurate. He will be able to compare Mr. Trump’s answers to what he has learned elsewhere.

  • What did you mean when you told Russian diplomats on May 10, 2017, that firing Mr. Comey had taken the pressure off?

The day after Mr. Comey’s firing, Mr. Trump met with Russian officials in the Oval Office. There, The Times revealed, Mr. Trump suggested he had fired Mr. Comey because of the pressure from the Russia investigation.

“I just fired the head of the F.B.I. He was crazy, a real nut job,” Mr. Trump said. “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.”

  • What did you mean in your interview with Lester Holt about Mr. Comey and Russia?

Shortly after firing Mr. Comey, Mr. Trump undercut his own argument when he told NBC News that he had been thinking about the Russia investigation when he fired Mr. Comey.

“I was going to fire Comey knowing there was no good time to do it. And in fact, when I decided to just do it, I said to myself — I said, you know, this Russia thing with Trump and Russia is a made-up story. It's an excuse by the Democrats for having lost an election that they should've won.”

After The Times revealed the president’s private dinner with Mr. Comey, Mr. Trump responded on Twitter.

"James Comey better hope that there are no "tapes" of our conversations before he starts leaking to the press!"

Mr. Comey appeared unworried. “Lordy, I hope there are tapes,” Mr. Comey said. The White House ultimately said that, no, there were no tapes.

  • What did you think about Mr. Comey’s June 8, 2017, testimony regarding Mr. Flynn, and what did you do about it?

After he was fired, Mr. Comey testified about his conversations with Mr. Trump and described him as preoccupied with the F.B.I.’s investigation into Russia. After the testimony, Mr. Trump called him a liar.

  • What was the purpose of the September and October 2017 statements, including tweets, regarding an investigation of Mr. Comey?

Sarah Huckabee Sanders, the White House press secretary, said that Mr. Comey had testified falsely to Congress and suggested that the Justice Department might investigate. Mr. Trump followed up with tweets suggesting that he should be investigated for rigging an inquiry into Mrs. Clinton. Such comments reinforced criticism that Mr. Trump views the Justice Department as a sword to use against his political rivals.

"...people not interviewed, including Clinton herself. Comey stated under oath that he didn't do this-obviously a fix? Where is Justice Dept?"

  • What is the reason for your continued criticism of Mr. Comey and his former deputy, Andrew G. Mc Cabe?

Mr. Comey and Mr. Mc Cabe are among Mr. Trump’s favorite targets. Mr. Mc Cabe is a lifelong Republican, but Mr. Trump has criticized him as a Clinton loyalist because Mr. Mc Cabe’s wife, a Democrat, ran unsuccessfully for office in Virginia and received donations from a Clinton ally. This question suggests that Mr. Mueller wants to know whether Mr. Trump’s criticism is an effort to damage the F.B.I. while it investigates the president’s associates.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#240499: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:33:24 PM

Speaking as an ex-fundamentalist, it's hard to find the people you think are supposed to be the good guys being shitheels.

Broken Pedestal.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Raptorslash Since: Oct, 2010
#240500: Apr 30th 2018 at 6:35:12 PM

Another thing the alt-right does is appropriate cultural icons - Pepe the Frog is just one example. They've also done it with movies like The Matrix and They Live! (although at least in the case of They Live John Carpenter intervened and directly told off the Nazis, though as in the case of Pepe that likely won't stop the appropriation).


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