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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#239951: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:33:35 PM

I mean, yeah, it's not coincidental that the Democrats who voted to confirm Pompeo are the ones are representing Red States and are gonna be facing a tough race in the fall. IE, the ones who will definitely lose their seats in November if they don't vote with the Republicans sometimes.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#239952: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:34:42 PM

I don't completely dismiss those points, but as I see it, I'm kind of skeptical that Trump-supporting Jones supporters would pay attention to the minutiae of confirmation voters. And conversely, I'm skeptical that there are a lot of Trump-supporting Jones supporters, or that confirmation votes would lead a Trump supporter/Republican to decide to vote for Jones, since as noted, he's not voting with Trump/Republicans the far majority of the time.

Occam's Razor would make me think that Jones and the others vote this way because they genuinely support those nominees.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#239953: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:35:48 PM

The difference is that if a populist is going to win then they already have support of a significant number of people in the base and thus denying them will just cause the party to lose the election, it's like trying to prevent cancer by shooting a cancer patient in the head.

To be fair, though - if the Democrats had someone as overtly vile as Trump coming up, I'm pretty sure I'd want the superdelegates as the Ace in the hole to try thwarting (or at least weakening) their position. The election would be lost, sure, but the long-term health of the party would be better - akin to amputating a gangrenous limb.

On a different note, I really wish CNN would stop including some of the bullet-points they do in coverage of Trump's statements - of the 53 in his call with Fox & Friends they listed, two of them had to do with Melania's birthday. While it might be bizarre, it's absolute fluff compared to the meat & potatoes where Trump admitted Cohen paid of Stormy Daniels as part of his representation of Trump, meaning that Cohen at least lied to investigators when claiming that Trump had no knowledge of the deal.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239954: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:36:46 PM

Except it's not about getting Republicans to vote for you as much as it's stopping them from voting against you, every Republican that stays home increases the chances of these red state Democrats getting re-elected.

Someone who truly supports it and someone who merely wants to do some good while still representing conservative constituents would behave more or less identically in this context, thus I think it's more fair to give them the benefit of the doubt.

To be fair, though - if the Democrats had someone as overtly vile as Trump coming up, I'm pretty sure I'd want the superdelegates as the Ace in the hole to try thwarting (or at least weakening) their position. The election would be lost, sure, but the long-term health of the party would be better - akin to amputating a gangrenous limb.
I am highly skeptical that this would do anything other than enraging the base thus causing them to support the populist even more, it's far better to work on stopping that from spreading in the very beginning instead of having a system that I see no evidence of having a positive effect.

edited 26th Apr '18 12:39:00 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#239955: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:41:38 PM

I mean the main point is that this makes Jones more likely to be re-elected, not less.

[down]I know, this is response to Hodor, not you.

edited 26th Apr '18 12:45:52 PM by Gilphon

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239956: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:43:11 PM

[up]Yes? That's my argument.

Edit: That makes sense, my bad.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:01:53 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#239957: Apr 26th 2018 at 12:56:52 PM

Honestly, if you thought a Democrat representing Alabama (or West Viriginia, Indiana, wherever) could get away with never voting with Republicans on anything important and still have a chance of being re-elected, I think the issue is more with you than the Democrat in question. That was just never going to be an option.

edited 26th Apr '18 12:57:45 PM by LSBK

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239958: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:01:30 PM

[up]Absolutely, some people just have unrealistic views of Jones.

That's not even counting the fringe Leftists who just wanted to smear a centrist Democratic for not being perfect.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:01:38 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#239959: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:18:30 PM

I think opposing any idea just because Sanders supports it is frankly a horrific example of intellectual dishonestly. We should be able to debate the pros and cons of removing superdelegates without even mentioning Sanders. Hitler Ate Sugar and even broken clocks are right twice a day.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:24:53 PM by Clarste

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239960: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:20:54 PM

[up]Agreed.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#239961: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:37:46 PM

I'd prefer if the ones bringing up the superdelegate system's issues weren't a bunch of sore loser hypocrites who are just mad that the superdelegates didn't give Bernie the primaries in 2016.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#239962: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:40:29 PM

As someone who didn't know a lot about politics at the time and observed a lot of that primary, the super delegates were.... not good with the PR. Like if the average person checks to see the results of the primary, and see that Clinton had an extra 40 votes before the primary even started... you need a LOT of information on politics to understand why that's kosher.

So I'm not really surprised people dislike it.

Read my stories!
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#239963: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:42:42 PM

[up][up]I don't care who's bringing up the issue, and I don't think anyone should. By all means question their motives, but ideas should not be attacked ad hominem.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#239964: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:43:38 PM

I think the part that is most galling to me about this is that the people who are complaining about this system and complained about it throughout the primaries tried to take advantage of it at the eleventh hour when it became clear they weren't going to win "fairly". Kind of undermined any point they had.

I have no doubt that if they end up on the losing end of the primaries again, they will try to appeal to the superdelegates again.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:44:33 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Clarste One Winged Egret Since: Jun, 2009 Relationship Status: Non-Canon
One Winged Egret
#239965: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:48:10 PM

All the more reason to get rid of them?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239966: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:51:48 PM

[up]Yes. There's no real reason to keep them and a strong reason for them to go.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#239967: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:52:46 PM

I'm listening to some highlights from the Fox and Friends interview, and it is insane.

It's literally just a massive venting session, where he just rants, showing how much stress he's been under.

The hosts are barely able to get a word in edgewise, and are sitting there looking uncomfortable.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:52:58 PM by megaeliz

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239968: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:54:42 PM

[up]Huh, honestly at this point I would not be surprised if he at some point decides to resign (especially if the pressure continues to ramp up). I'm not saying that it's necessarily likely but I think it's a possibility.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:54:48 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Raptorslash Since: Oct, 2010
#239969: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:54:49 PM

I'm disappointed but not too surprised by how many of Trump's destructive and/or underqualified nominees got through without too much of a challenge.

I don't really get why any Democrats voted for people like De Vos, Pompeo, Tillerson, Zinke, Pruitt, etc. either. Their records aren't good and their backgrounds aren't good.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:55:26 PM by Raptorslash

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239970: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:55:39 PM

[up]Look at their states, if it's inevitable red state Democrats have nothing to gain for voting against Trump's nominees and everything to lose.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#239971: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:55:58 PM

[up][up] Um, pretty sure no Democratic Senator voted for De Vos.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:57:12 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#239972: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:56:24 PM

I could see Trump resigning under the same logic of a rage-quit. Him going out under his own terms is the only way he'd accept going out.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#239973: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:57:21 PM

As for the super-delegate thing...honestly, I'd prefer getting rid of caucuses first if that were an option. Those aren't terribly democratic either.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:57:45 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#239974: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:58:27 PM

[up][up]I think the odds of him resigning will seriously go up if the Democrats take Congress, if he's frustrated enough now when the Republicans control both chambers how bad it could get with his agenda completely stalled by a hostile Congress?

I'm still going to expect him to last until reelection but at this point it's a distinct possibility.

[up]I'm game for that.

edited 26th Apr '18 1:58:45 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Raptorslash Since: Oct, 2010
#239975: Apr 26th 2018 at 1:59:28 PM

Re:De Vos - My mistake.

You have a fair point that the Democrats don't really have any way to stop any of Trump's nominees until they have control of the Presidency and Congress back, and Red State Dems probably do have to be more careful.

I can't really see Trump quitting - he's go too big an ego for that, and he already signed up to run again in 2020.

edited 26th Apr '18 2:00:29 PM by Raptorslash


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