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KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#238851: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:02:52 PM

[up] And when The Right had done the, well, right thing. Dunno, push civil right in modern day, help trans folks or accept inmigrants for goodwill.

Just answer that, and I accept that as a answer.

edited 14th Apr '18 5:04:23 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238852: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:11:32 PM

[up] One last time, you're making a judgement on an entire political spectrum based on US Republicans. I'm not disputing that US Republicans are amoral and vile, I agree with you there. I'm disputing the assertion that all conservatism is inherently the same, and that all progressivism is inherently good. That's basically seeing a tree for the whole forest, it's a misunderstanding of the definition of the terms outside of the framework of US politics.

You've mentioned that you're strongly supportive of rule of law. That could be described as a conservative stance. In fact, when the terms "right" and "left" were first coined for politics, the left was considered the party of movement and the right was considered the party of order. If you believe in maintaining the status quo on an issue you have a conservative stance on that issue. If you believe in changing it you have a progressive stance. Neither stance is inherently good or bad.

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#238853: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:14:24 PM

[up] I believe in orderly changes to create a orderly state that does care for its people, the Right Wing Nightmare of the "Nanny state"? That is my ideal world.

[down] My weird Token Conservative position is that I dont believe that Wanting ban abortion is Pure Evil. I support legalizing it because it ultimately the people that does support abortion are gonna end up lowering the rate of it, I am fine with Abortion but I hardly think that opossing it is pure evil.

Blame me being a Latinoamerican Catholic.

edited 14th Apr '18 5:20:00 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#238854: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:16:22 PM

I'll give you Frum for the most part, but Kasich is no moderate. He's not insane or erratic, but he's regressive as hell on abortion and economics. Just calm about it.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238855: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:24:17 PM

[up][up] The "nanny state" panic in the US comes from an extreme libertarian streak in US conservatism. You're talking in circles to justify the idea that change is universally 100% good, but you can't get away from the fact that the words conservative and progressive carry no value judgement with them. Everyone has conservative stances and progressive stances, whether those stances are good or not depends on what they are. Frankly saying one is inherently better than the other is a good way to get into a heap of trouble, because you need both.

Rule of law is a conservative position. There's nothing wrong with that, because it's a good position.

edited 14th Apr '18 5:25:16 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#238856: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:32:16 PM

Rule of Law is Conservative In Name Only, given that even Leftists use it.

Watch me destroying my country
Euodiachloris Since: Oct, 2010
#238857: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:35:38 PM

[up]Small c. You lot need to start with the phrase "conservative with a small c".

OK, might need some explanation for that: for countries without a Tory, Liberal and/or Labour thing going on... The political position gets the C, the philosophical one gets the c.

edited 14th Apr '18 5:37:44 PM by Euodiachloris

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238858: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:47:00 PM

[up][up] Rule of law is the quintessential conservative stance, because it's all about status quo and societal order. As I mentioned, the right wing was originally known as the party of order. And it's possible to have conservative and progressive stances on different issues, so I'm not sure why leftists supporting law and order would change the fact that it's a conservative position.

[up] That's pretty much what I've been trying to explain. Drawing a judgement about little c conservatism based on modern-day US Republicans is the issue here.

They should have sent a poet.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#238859: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:51:32 PM

That's pretty much what I've been trying to explain. Drawing a judgement about little c conservatism based on modern-day US Republicans is the issue here.

I think the problem here is most people have assumed you've been talking about capital c Conservatism. Having a little c conservative attitude to things isn't inherently bad since it's not necessarily opposed to the status quo changing, but most capital c Conservatism these days is basically reactionary politics. And most people who call themselves "conservatives" are capital c.

FluffyMcChicken My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare from where the floating lights gleam Since: Jun, 2014 Relationship Status: In another castle
My Hair Provides Affordable Healthcare
#238860: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:52:04 PM

Robert Mueller is also a conservative who can be relied on. To get this back on track:

Politico: Working Families Party endorses Nixon over

ALBANY — The Working Families Party endorsed actor Cynthia Nixon over two-term Gov. Andrew Cuomo on Saturday, fueling Nixon’s left-flank challenge and deepening a split among New York Democrats.

“You are the heart and soul of the progressive New York that we want to create,” Nixon said. “The last eight years under Andrew Cuomo have been an exercise in living with disappointment and dysfunction and dishonesty.”

Nixon has promised to legalize and tax marijuana, end cash bail, push for single-payer health care and increase funding to public schools — raising taxes if necessary. Cuomo has said he has a record of progressive achievement and is an effective leader in the fight against President Donald Trump.

The WFP endorsement all but guarantees a formal nomination — which will come at a convention in May — and assures the “Sex and the City” star a spot on the November ballot, even if she fails to dislodge Cuomo in September's Democratic primary.

Beyond the election-year politics, this weekend's dramatic events at a pair of Albany-area hotels showed how the state Democratic Party's schism is playing out.

Nixon snubbed Democratic party activists who gathered for the annual Democratic Rural Conference beginning on Friday. Cuomo addressed them in private.

She instead pitched the New York Progressive Action Network — an affiliate of Our Revolution, which grew out of Bernie Sanders’ presidential campaign — and was greeted with praise and cheers on Saturday shortly before 4 p.m. when she arrived in a basement ballroom opposite the hotel pool where the WFP had gathered.

“We have a lot of work in front of us, but one thing is clear: if we’re going to win and transform our state, the old way of doing things just won’t cut it anymore,” WFP state director Bill Lipton said. “For eight years we tried to work with Andrew Cuomo to transform New York into a truly progressive state. For eight years he broke his promises and kept the Republicans in the State Senate, blocking critical legislation for affordable housing, women’s equality and criminal justice reform.”

Sensing the WFP nomination was slipping from his grasp, Cuomo announced on Friday evening that he didn’t want it anyway. Major unions that have endorsed the governor pulled out of the WFP, continuing an exodus of Cuomo-allied unions that began in 2014.

A few union representatives spoke up on the governor’s behalf anyway.

“He has shown his commitment to working families, he passed the [$15] minimum wage. Just this week he signed a bill on the Janus issue, which is very important to our members,” said Beverley Brakeman, assistant director of the United Auto Workers Region 9A. “The governor is the strongest candidate here and we think he’s going to win and we’re going to help him win. We’re very concerned about the process here, and we’re very concerned about this being a spoiler and hurting us all in 2018.”

But the overwhelming sentiment among those who attended the WFP event was that Cuomo was a false progressive, whose tacit support for the state Senate’s Independent Democratic Conference has led to what they believe are watered-down achievements. (Earlier this month, Cuomo cheered as the IDC dissolved into the Senate’s mainstream Democratic conference.)

“Many of us have imprisoned ourselves in a cell with no windows and doors. Fear of losing some tenuous grip on power derived through duplicitous efforts has left us satisfied with scraps gained,” said Rosemary Rivera of the group Citizen Action on New York. “It’s not enough.”

Abbey Fashouer, a spokeswoman for Cuomo 2018, responded by saying: “The governor’s record of progressive accomplishment is unmatched, from delivering a $15 minimum wage, marriage equality, the strongest gun safety laws in the nation, free college tuition, paid family leave, ending finger printing for food stamps, and a record $27 billion in funding for education. ... The schism between the progressive unions who founded the WFP and some of its member organizations is unfortunate, but in that divide the governor stands with the unions who have left the WFP and no longer feel it represents the interests of middle- and working-class New Yorkers.”

The WFP was founded in 1998 as an alliance of unions and progressive groups hoping to drag the Democratic Party to the left. New York law allows for fusion voting, and Democratic politicians often seek the WFP line as a buttress, and its support has at times tipped the scales in Democratic primaries for local races.

The WFP has a rocky history with Cuomo. In 2010, when the party was reeling from an investigation of its campaign practices, WFP leaders asked Cuomo, then the state's attorney general, to be its standard bearer in that year's governor's race. While his platform didn’t mesh with the party’s, Cuomo agreed and helped the WFP win the 50,000 votes it needed to have an automatic ballot line.

But Cuomo’s fiscally moderate first term alienated some party activists, and in 2014 there was a push to endorse Zephyr Teachout, a law professor who is now serving as Nixon’s campaign treasurer.

Cuomo promised to work for policies like the minimum wage hike and to push for a Democratic Senate. Citizen Action agreed to endorse the governor, but others abstained. One was WFP treasurer Dorothy Siegel, who on Saturday shouted her support for Nixon.

“I can think of only one man in America I trust less than Andrew Cuomo,” Siegel said, declaring that his current promise to push for a Democratic Senate is “the same pile of manure.”

Nixon won 91 percent of the weighted vote, party leaders said; 187 of the 229 members of the state committee were represented either in person or by proxy. The party also backed City Councilman Jumaane Williams of Brooklyn, who is challenging Lt. Gov. Kathy Hochul.

Cuomo’s labor allies spent Friday evening and Saturday sniping at the WFP, saying it has turned its back on progressive values.

“The WFP was a good concept,” said Mike Mc Guire, director of the Mason Tenders District Council, who left the party after 2014. “Unfortunately, it was never allowed to become what it was supposed to be, because the agenda was always driven by the so-called progressives running the staff. In hindsight, it's easy to see the whole thing was just a scam, a cynical ploy to drive a radical agenda using the muscle and money of organized labor while widely ignoring the actual concerns of New York's working people. It's no wonder that they now want to be the disruptors, that the last thing they want to see is Democratic unity at a time when we need it most.”

George Albro, another WFP founding member and co-chair of NYPAN, said, “it’s unfortunate that the governor has chosen to have a tantrum.”

WFP co-chair Karen Scharff, of Citizen Action, said she was not worried about the party’s long-term viability, even though Nixon has not committed to staying on its line if she loses the Democratic primary.

“We’re going to bring in new people, new members, new energy and the unions that are still in the party are going to be part of the party and working for the party — regardless of disagreements over one endorsement,” Scharff told POLITICO. “We’ve had disagreements in the past over endorsements. We’ve gone forward together as a party, and I hope in the long run we will all be sitting together again.”

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238861: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:54:36 PM

[up][up] I've been using the little c and trying to separate it from US Conservatism, but I guess it gets a little confusing. From the very beginning we've been talking about conservatism as a stance on the political spectrum though.

Conservatsim in the US is a weird combination of authoritarianism, libertarianism, and creepy dominionist stuff.

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#238862: Apr 14th 2018 at 5:58:22 PM

[up] I should say that Libertarians being Authoritarian is not a contradiction. If you value muh Individuality over everything, then your freedom to opress others is included on it.

Is inmoral? Oh Yes. But is not hypocrital.

[up][up][up] I honestly dont see any case where a Reasonable conservative exist, I try to look in history but it just ends up with shit as the Conservatives literally supporting the KKK or straight up Monarchism.

[up][up] A token good conservative that acts like a Leftist is not what I should call "real" conservative.

edited 14th Apr '18 6:01:19 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238863: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:03:36 PM

[up] I guess technically, but don't forget that libertarians are in favor of dissolving state institutions while authoritarians generally prefer to strengthen them so they can exert greater control over a country.

US Conservatism is a wonderful stew of contradictions. They want the government to regulate less, except if it's regulating things they don't like. They bash anyone who isn't mindlessly patriotic and talk about "2nd amendment solutions" with the next breath. And don't forget being hardcore constitutional originalists but wanting the ten commandments up on courthouses.

I'm not really sure how anyone could possibly explain the difference between US conservative and little c conservative any further, we're into beating a dead horse territory here. Needless to say the "conservatism bad" stance remains wildly incorrect. There is no value judgement attached to conservatism, and everyone has both conservative and progressive stances.

edited 14th Apr '18 6:06:03 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#238864: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:05:31 PM

[up] Yeah, they arent very bright.

You see why I dont think that Right Wing people is never good unless you make them fight against actual extremist Communists?

libertarians are in favor of dissolving state institutions while authoritarians generally prefer to strengthen them so they can exert greater control over a country.

Nah, you can weaken the laws of a country so the few authorities remaining have all the power and freedom to do what they want.

[down] European examples of Right Wing figures being actually good please? I heard that they pushed Gay Marriage in Germany but that was because the Left agreed with them.

edited 14th Apr '18 6:16:39 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238865: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:12:31 PM

[up] You're viewing all political theory through the lens of US politics.

They should have sent a poet.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#238866: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:26:47 PM

As far as change goes, there's likely always a way for anything to potentially change for the better, but that doesn't mean by a long shot that every change will be for the better.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#238867: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:27:39 PM

What makes this combination of Propaganda, Disinformation, and the bias sorting effect so dangerous is that we don't have the same set of facts anymore. The far right Propaganda Machine, aided by cable news and the internet, has created a self renforcing feedback loop where people get so radicalized that they actually firmly believe in a child sex trafficking ring headed by Hillary Clinton in the basement of a pizza parlor that doesn't actually have a basement.

raziel365 Anka Aquila from South of the Far West (Veteran) Relationship Status: I've been dreaming of True Love's Kiss
Anka Aquila
#238868: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:30:06 PM

[up][up][up][up]

Kazuya, if you want an example of bad left and good right, just look at our current situation: the left has shown that they were willing to allow the Fujimorist Party (AKA the worst party of our country) to harm the government because they couldn't compromise on their ideological purity.

In the same vein, the current shift to the Right that has been seen across the rest of Latin America and the subsequent stabilization of each country in front of the current resession is something to take note of when other previously and current left-governed countries like Argentina, Brazil and Venezuela are facing or are reeling from a crisis.

[down]

You are half-right, because the other side of the issue is the thick headedness of the Brazilian Left ot not letting go of Lula and try to find another person to compete against him.

edited 14th Apr '18 7:40:36 PM by raziel365

Instead of focusing on relatives that divide us, we should find the absolutes that tie us.
KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#238869: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:44:06 PM

[up] The issue is that the biggest danger to Brazil currently is...a right wing candidate, Bolsonaro.

Venezuela is the only place where being Right Wing is not evil, and that is because is a freaking socialist dictatorship.

edited 14th Apr '18 6:46:37 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#238870: Apr 14th 2018 at 6:51:56 PM

Back to American politics, James Tapper's thread about Scooter Libby, the person who Trump pardoned:

Calling @Comey a “proven LEAKER & LIAR” while you’re about to pardon Scooter Libby, who leaked the identity of a covert CIA employee and was convicted for lying about it to the FBI — well, that’s quite a thing.

1/Some confusion out there about Libby leaking to the press. Yes, Armitage leaked as well. And neither was convicted of leaking, though Libby was convicted of lying about it. Here's the indictment

2/ Please note — July 8 2003: "LIBBY advised Miller of his belief that Wilson’s wife worked for the CIA." (That's Judith Miller of the NYT)

3/ "On or about July 12, 2003, in the afternoon, LIBBY spoke by telephone to Cooper, who asked whether LIBBY had heard that Wilson’s wife was involved in sending Wilson on the trip to Niger. LIBBY confirmed to Cooper, without elaboration or qualification, that he had heard this". 4/(That's Matthew Cooper then of TIME)

5/ "On or about July 12, 2003, in the late afternoon, LIBBY spoke by telephone with Judith Miller of the New York Times and discussed Wilson’s wife, and that she worked at the CIA."

6/ For context: the Robert Novak oped that first outed Plame was July 14, 2003. Libby does not appear to have been a source for this —though Armitage was.

7/ The jury ultimately convicted Libby for lying not leaking. The jury, per this WaPo story, was convinced Libby leaked — they just didn't understand why he would be punished for it while others in WH and admin weren't.

In short, as I originally stated, Libby leaked Plame's identity He was convicted of lying about it. Whether he should have been tried for or convicted of any of it is a matter of opinion. -fin-

edited 14th Apr '18 6:52:22 PM by megaeliz

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238871: Apr 14th 2018 at 7:00:52 PM

[up][up] You helpfully missed the whole point there, which is that a conservative turn in politics and economic policy brought Latin American countries out of crisis.

"Left is always good" is not a winning argument. That's unambiguously incorrect.

They should have sent a poet.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#238872: Apr 14th 2018 at 7:03:59 PM

It's not hard to imagine a US where the 2016 election was between Republican candidate Hilary Clinton and Democratic candidate Bernie Sanders, with Donald Trump languishing in jail for a combination of multiple counts of tax evasion and breach of contract. Such a US would be mostly in line with Europe.

Actually it's very hard to imagine that. Since Clinton was not to the right of Sanders. As we have been over many, many times in this thread. Clinton was to the left of Sanders on any number of social issues.

KazuyaProta Shin Megami Tensei IV from A Industrial Farm Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
Shin Megami Tensei IV
#238873: Apr 14th 2018 at 7:13:34 PM

[up] That's why I love our Evil Overlord Hillary.

(Hey, I like acting like if Right Wing propaganda is true, it makes the Left look more badass. Ironically)

Hillary might have run for the Republicans in a world where they're the Left Wing party

edited 14th Apr '18 7:16:50 PM by KazuyaProta

Watch me destroying my country
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#238874: Apr 14th 2018 at 7:25:11 PM

"Venezuela is the only place where being Right Wing is not evil, and that is because is a freaking socialist dictatorship. "

Which indeed it should serve as warm against to things: the idea of left being good o that being left is always progresive.

Well, in almost 20 years we didnt so jack shit for any minorities here except some token effort with or natives, now we dont like colombians and much of Anti US is frankaly racist and xenophobic in many ways.

Hell when Maduro was campain against Capriles, he party sugest he was gay by virtue of....not having a wife, even when a) capriles is know for daiting a lot of girl and b) Chavez being pretty damn neutral about LGTB.

If anything that teach me this forum is that left dosent mean good but it does have more apologist for their shit that it should have.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#238875: Apr 14th 2018 at 7:28:22 PM

[up] does this count as US politics still?


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