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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238576: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:26:41 AM

It was mentioned earlier in this thread but not only do servicemebers not have any obligation to follow unlawful orders, they’re actually required not to.

Trump trying to get the military to take over the country would most definitely be an unlawful order.

They should have sent a poet.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#238577: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:28:12 AM

It bears reminding that servicemembers are still human beings and perfectly capable of following unlawful or utterly repugnant orders because they agree with them, even if their duty requires that they don't go through with them.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#238578: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:29:55 AM

We can think of this as a sort of race. Will the likely sweeping Democratic victory in Congress in 2018 give us enough leverage to block the worst of Trump's actions until he can be voted out in 2020? Will Trump manage to tear down enough checks and balances before then to make Congress' actions moot? Will he sabotage the Census to give Republicans a boost in national elections for the next 10 years?

Would any act by Trump or his administration get enough Senate Republicans to vote to convict him on impeachment?

edited 13th Apr '18 8:30:30 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#238579: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:30:24 AM

[up][up]Yes and they're human beings which mean they can be alienated by an incompetent and boorish President, since Trump has worked very hard to alienate the Intelligence communities and a lesser extent the military I am supremely confident the idea of a Trump backed coup is nothing more than hysterical alarmism.

edited 13th Apr '18 8:30:45 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
FyodorDose Since: Mar, 2018
#238580: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:30:43 AM

[up] It would never even get that far. Such a national disrespect of our constitution and what it stands for would be completely ignored by the military.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#238581: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:31:18 AM

A Trump-backed coup is unthinkable, but it's also not what we're talking about. The question is more whether the military would stand by as Trump destroys our political institutions and gets himself enshrined as President for Life. In other words, would the military stage a coup against Trump if he tries to become a dictator?

edited 13th Apr '18 8:32:58 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
FyodorDose Since: Mar, 2018
#238582: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:33:11 AM

[up] That sounds like more hysterical alarmism to me. Trump is not the only governmental official in the United States. There's just no way it can happen if like 60% of the country hates your guts.

edited 13th Apr '18 8:34:30 AM by FyodorDose

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238583: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:34:16 AM

That’s sort of a different deal, if we’re talking about them just sitting to the side while a purely political destabilization happens.

In that case yes, I think they would sit to the side. They have some pretty strict rules about getting involved in civilian politics.

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#238584: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:37:11 AM

[up][up][up]Ok, that is a different question.

Though I have to wonder, how exactly would Trump do that? Because frankly that sounds like something that would be difficult if he were a competent and savvy President, and he most certainly is not. His administration has been a dumpster fire of incompetence and chaos, that is not the kind of foundation you build a defacto autocracy. Putin for all his obvious flaws actually made people's lives better and has the savvy to consolidate power, Trump has none of that.

So while this isn't as hysterical as the idea of Trump launching a coup it's up there, as a realist I'm extremely skeptical.

[up][up]Agreed.

edited 13th Apr '18 8:37:26 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#238585: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:39:37 AM

Thing is, Trump doesn't really have to be some mastermind to weaken democracy. All he has to do is chip away at the USA's institutions. Which he has been doing slowly but surely via not hiring people in the State Department, dissing the NSA, CIA, and FBI, filling the Cabinet with people hellbent on demolishing their Departments, nominating shitty people to be judges...

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#238586: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:40:49 AM

Again, it's not a matter of an affirmative act to get himself voted King. It's what he's doing already: installing corrupt and incompetent officials, obstructing justice, destroying institutions, tearing down his opponents with such juvenile rhetoric, and generally making a mockery of all the political norms we've built over the centuries.

If it were just Trump, it wouldn't be a problem, but the Republican Congress has signaled that it's going to do nothing meaningful to stop him. The judicial branch, while still holding on, is under savage attack by Republicans around the country, something that'll take decades to repair. The Republican media machine is doubling down on building a walled-off culture opposed to the very idea of facts and reality.

What if he wins simply because there's nobody left to say "No"?

Slight [nja].

Edit: To be clear, I don't expect this to happen. The demonstrations that took place over healthcare and taxes will look like nothing compared to what would happen if Trump guts the Justice Department to end the special prosecutor or pardons everyone involved, and does not immediately get impeached. There's plenty of social conscience left in this country, but will it matter if nobody in power listens?

edited 13th Apr '18 8:44:04 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#238587: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:43:36 AM

[up] 2018 is looking to be a Democratic Wave.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238588: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:45:18 AM

Either way, the military getting involved would be inappropriate. Military interference in civilian politics is essentially unamerican.

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#238589: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:46:19 AM

Right but I don't really see how "weakening US institution" logically jumps to "defacto autocrat". And considering how a Blue wave is rather likely come midterms think it's quite likely that we'd see a large number of elected officials who would not support such things.

So is such a thing impossible? I'm not going to go that far but it is implausible enough that I wonder why we're seriously talking about this? Trump weakening government institutions is bad because they do good work, not because he'll magically make himself a defacto autocrat which is something that requires either competence or the mother of all opportunities. And I just don't see Trump having either.

edited 13th Apr '18 8:46:43 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#238590: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:46:54 AM

[up][up][up] Will it be in time, and enough, I wonder.

[up][up] Yes, for the military to get involved in politics would be fundamentally against the founding design of this country. Which is why we can't count on them to save us from Trump, other than by refusing his orders.

edited 13th Apr '18 8:47:06 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#238591: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:47:47 AM

Military interference would lead to a military dictatorship that overrides the use of normal law,and that's just getting started

edited 13th Apr '18 8:48:04 AM by Ultimatum

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#238592: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:47:57 AM

Trump going full autocrat? Probably not. But if the damage he has done to our institutions isn't repaired ASAP, it will make things easier for the next would-be autocrat. And they might not be as incompetent.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#238593: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:50:32 AM

[up]Well that's completely different, yes Trump could cause damage that could lead to worse damage down the road. Though considering there's a good chance that come 2020 we could have a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress I think that the damage could be contained.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#238594: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:55:27 AM

You guys ever read r/army on a daily basis? The Joes on there, frontline and back home, really don't like Trump and openly say so.

Plus, did everyone forget about all the active service members who began supporting taking a knee on Twitter?

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#238595: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:56:39 AM

And if the Census is bollixed up enough, we might never get another Democratic President. This is the lasting institutional damage we're talking about: falsified demographics, courts ignoring blatant abuses, ongoing and unchecked voter suppression, disinformation campaigns motivating waves of hate-based retaliation against anyone standing up for their rights, the dismantling of the justice system that's supposed to hold politicians accountable...

My only hope, the thing that gives me comfort here, is that Trump and his cronies repeatedly demonstrate that they're so hilariously incompetent that they can't even turn America into a dictatorship properly, and thus we have enough time to fix what they've broken.

By the way, House Republicans voted in lockstep for a Constitutional amendment to outlaw the deficit. It failed, because it needs a two-thirds majority, but barely a single GOP congressman stood up and voted against it because the point was to put on a show for their voters. That's the level of malfeasance we're dealing with.

edited 13th Apr '18 9:00:16 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#238596: Apr 13th 2018 at 8:57:03 AM

But the military is supposed to blindly love the GOP over those freedom-hating Democrats who keep trying to cut the defence budget. Just ignore all the ways the GOP keeps fucking with the VA.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#238597: Apr 13th 2018 at 9:00:03 AM

[up]

Are you sure?

Military personnel here tend to be fairly critical of their own government, while there are plenty of soldiers who voted Democrat, or are liberals.

Frankly it seems the distance between the military and civilians has grown so wide that everyone automatically assumes the entire military is right-wing. Nobody really bothers to check for shades of gray.

Heck, there are a ton of veterans who are Democrats. And a lot of Vietnam vets especially.

edited 13th Apr '18 9:00:50 AM by TheWildWestPyro

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#238598: Apr 13th 2018 at 9:01:22 AM

Figther fears are right in a way, while trump incompetent have robed him of any oportunity of changing things around for the worst, the election already create a big divide in the population and it will continue to grow over time, the dems will have work a lot to bring people united after this.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#238599: Apr 13th 2018 at 9:01:47 AM

The military is usually conservative, just not as much in the US politics sense of the word.

They also don't really like any presidents. Not until after they're out of office, at least.

They should have sent a poet.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#238600: Apr 13th 2018 at 9:01:47 AM

I would've thought the sarcasm in my post would be obvious.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

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