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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#238101: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:02:30 PM

I've been waiting for Renato Mariotti's thread:

THREAD: What does news that a search warrant was executed by the FBI at the offices of former Trump lawyer Michael Cohen tell us about the investigation of Cohen and the Mueller investigation?

1/ Today the @nytimes reported that the FBI executed a search warrant at Cohen's offices, seizing a computer, phone, and personal financial records. The @washingtonpost reports that attorney-client communications were seized, which is not surprising.

2/ The @washingtonpost also reports that Cohen is under investigation for bank fraud and campaign finance violations. That is consistent with the original @nytimes reporting that records relating to Stormy Daniels were seized. Cohen was responsible for that agreement and payment.

3/ So what does this tell us? Many things. First, federal prosecutors in Manhattan presented evidence to a federal judge who concluded that there is good reason to believe that Cohen committed a crime and that evidence of that crime was located in Cohen's office.

4/ That means that Cohen is under investigation and that there is substantial evidence that evidence of a crime was at his office. It also means that federal prosecutors believed that they could not obtain the same records via subpoena. That's unusual and interesting.

5/ The United States Attorneys' Manual (DOJ's guidelines for federal prosecutors) disfavors search warrants of attorneys' offices. Section 9-13.420 states that "prosecutors are expected to take the least intrusive approach" and should consider subpoenas instead of a warrant.

6/ Section 13.420 requires authorization by the United States Attorney or Assistant Attorney General, consultation with the Criminal Division of the Justice Department, a search warrant that is as narrow and specific as possible, and procedures to safeguard privileged materials.

8/ The fact that federal prosecutors obtained a search warrant tells us that they believed that they would not obtain the same records if they used a subpoena. That's not only what 9-13.420 requires, but it's also common sense—the prosecutors had an incentive to use a subpoena.

9/ Cohen is an attorney who has his own lawyer. If the prosecutors used a subpoena, Cohen's attorney would be obligated to go through all the documents and materials himself and produce only what's relevant to the prosecutors. He would be responsible for organizing them as well.

10/ Instead, prosecutors and FBI agents decided to take upon themselves the hefty task of seizing these documents, setting up complicated procedures to weed out privileged materials, and organize and digitize the documents. They wouldn't have done that if they didn't have to.

11/ This suggests that they have some information about Cohen that suggests that he would destroy evidence, hide evidence, or otherwise deceive the prosecution team. So what does this mean for Trump? It's an issue for him for at least two reasons.

12/ First, his relationship with Cohen appears to go beyond a typical lawyer-client relationship, by Cohen's own description. Communications between Cohen and Trump would be reviewed by a "taint team" that is separate and walled off from the investigators.

13/ If the taint team found communications between Trump and Cohen that were not privileged, those communications could be used in the investigation. An example would be communications that are completely unrelated to legal advice, or communications furthering an ongoing crime.

14/ Second, Trump should be concerned because Cohen appears to have significant potential criminal liability. He could potentially cooperate against Trump, although he appears unlikely to do so. Trump could pardon Cohen for any federal offense, but he cannot pardon state crimes.

15/ Most importantly, because the search warrant was required to be "drawn as specifically as possible," the fact that the FBI seized Trump's communications with Cohen suggests that the FBI believed that those communications may provide evidence in their criminal investigation.

16/ That should worry Trump. It doesn't necessarily mean that investigators believe Trump committed a crime, but it suggests that they believe that his communications would have potentially contained useful evidence. He was, at least, in close proximity of a crime.

17/ One question that is raised by this news that we cannot answer is why Mueller chose to refer this case to Manhattan prosecutors instead of handling it himself. Perhaps we will learn more in the days to come that could shed light on his decision. /end

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#238102: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:03:54 PM

I find it hard to believe that Trump's approval rating is actually in the double digits. Who in the fucking Hell are all these people who actually approve of the Great Pumpkinhead!?
Republicans.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#238103: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:10:21 PM

I know people whose only source of information is the local evening news who will believe or disregard the political stories at will based on whether the story says something good or bad about Trump. They'll even agree with Democratic positions until they hear Trump say something to the contrary. For them, Trump is a political position on himself, only he speaks the truth.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#238104: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:12:58 PM

I mean, I remember something posted awhile ago that said like 80% of Trump supporters are perfectly fine disregarding things they already believe, if Trump says the opposite. Trump could say "the wall is bad and never going to happen." and they'd be absolutely fine with it because Trump is the one who said it.

At this point, it's almost like a cult.

edited 9th Apr '18 4:13:51 PM by LSBK

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#238105: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:13:49 PM

[up][up][up]Yeah, I have a few acquaintances (I can't, in good conscience, actually call them friends) who are die-hard Trump supporters. They're all like: "Oh, he's like your best friend; he'll do anything for you."

Jeezus F***ing Christ, no he's not!!! Wake the F*** up, you shitheads! Trump isn't your best friend, he only cares about himself! How stupid can you possibly be!?

Unfortunately, you can't reason with these people. They've been conditioned for decades to oppose anyone who isn't a life-long Republican.

edited 9th Apr '18 4:18:09 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#238106: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:14:32 PM

He is essentially a cult leader. I think that's been apparent for a while now and is only becoming more and more obvious.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#238107: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:15:17 PM

Yup, the only thing those people are motivated by is racism. That's how they can easily adopt contradictory positions, because it's never contradicting their real motivator.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#238108: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:16:33 PM

Did Trump just admit to intent to Obstruct Justice on live television?

It certainly sounded like it to me.

This is very relevant I think.

edited 9th Apr '18 5:50:28 PM by megaeliz

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#238109: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:23:59 PM

Any reaction from Congressional Republicans yet?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Imca (Veteran)
#238110: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:35:44 PM

As much as I want to think Trump was using hyperbole when he made the comment of "I could shoot someone dead on the street and no one would care" ... it's looking more and more like that was the absolute truth.

I knew it was the absolute truth and not hyperbole the instant he was voted in as president after advocating rape.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#238111: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:37:42 PM

I don't think that really works logically, he barely won by a few thousand votes. That doesn't mean that he's invulnerable to losing votes, if anything if just 1/10 of his people decide to stay home (which is more than possible) then he would be doomed come 2020.

To be perfectly frank I think it would be a bad idea to take anything Trump says seriously from a factual perspective (considering the source).

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#238112: Apr 9th 2018 at 4:52:57 PM

Cohen's page on the GOP site is now pulling a 404 error.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#238113: Apr 9th 2018 at 5:34:56 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Wouldn't be new, considering he claimed that threatening Comey affected his testimony.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#238114: Apr 9th 2018 at 5:43:17 PM

Someone asked if there was any response from Congressional Republicans yet.

Well, it's not quite that, but Gov. Mike Huckabee has tweeted this response...

Waiting to see if ACLU will weigh in on the raid of Michael Cohen's office and home. If gov't can seize privileged communication between a client and lawyer, what civil liberties are left? Hate @realDonaldTrump if you must, but 4th and 5th amendments shouldn't be shredded.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#238115: Apr 9th 2018 at 5:52:02 PM

Yeah, their silence is starting to speak volumes on where they stand on this...

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#238116: Apr 9th 2018 at 5:54:02 PM

If gov't can seize privileged communication between a client and lawyer, what civil liberties are left?

All the ones where your lawyer doesn't also happen to be involved in potentially criminal behaviour.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#238117: Apr 9th 2018 at 5:56:58 PM

Sean Spicer has told Fox News that Trump should let Mueller's investigation play out and I'm hearing that the judge who approved the warrant for Cohen's raid was the person Trump picked to replace Preet Bahara, but I can't confirm it.

And the Washington Post has done an annotated response to Trump's rant on television.

Trump’s tirade after the Michael Cohen raid, annotated

Apologies for the lack of quotation here, but the article really needs to be read to see the annotations, which are basically fact checking what Trump has just said. For example, right at the start of Trump's rant where he claims the FBI has broken into Cohen's property, the annotation is as follows:

The U.S. attorney’s office did not “break in”; it got a warrant. And in fact, as Philip Bump notes, getting permission to raid an attorney’s office is much more onerous:

The U.S. Attorneys’ Manual details six additional safeguards when raiding an attorney involved in a case:

  1. Before obtaining a search warrant, investigators had to try to obtain the evidence in another way, such as by subpoena.
  2. The authorization for the warrant had to come from either the U.S. attorney or an assistant attorney general. (Rosenstein is deputy attorney general, a higher position than assistant attorney general.)
  3. The prosecutor had to confer with the criminal division of the department before seeking the warrant.
  4. The team conducting the search had to “employ adequate precautions” to ensure that they weren’t improperly viewing privileged communications between the Cohen his clients.
  5. The search team would have included a “privilege team” including lawyers and agents not working the case which would work to ensure that investigators conducting the search didn’t see privileged communications.
  6. The investigators had to develop a review process for the seized material.

edited 9th Apr '18 6:12:20 PM by Wyldchyld

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#238118: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:27:19 PM

[up]

Yeah, there's a reason Spicer was something of a Woobie back when he was Press Secretary - you could tell that he initially thought it'd be like other Press Secretaries' tenures, and was woefully unprepared for just how loudly, overtly, and often his boss would lie through his teeth and he'd have to try picking up the pieces.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#238119: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:39:11 PM

Turns out Trump has finally realized how his own advisors had been tricking him into making relatively sane-ish policy decisions and speeches, instead of, as he puts it, "tell it like it is."

An excerpt:

The speech was written. A cast of relatable Americans with emotional stories was standing by to reinforce the message. But President Donald Trump was in no mood to play along.

“The hell with it,” Trump said, recounting the scene with his aides to a West Virginia crowd last week. Trump tossed the staff-prepared remarks on tax cuts in the air and ducked as the paper fluttered to the floor. “I said, ‘This is boring, come on.’ Tell it like it is.”

This president has never been one to stick to a script, but that abandoned speech illustrates a new phase in Trump’s presidency. He is increasingly at odds with his staff — and growing wise to their tactics.

One favored staff strategy: Guide the president to the right decision by making the conventional choice seem like the only realistic option. Except now, 14 months into his administration, Trump is on to them, and he’s making clear he won’t be boxed in.

That was the message that an irritated Trump delivered to his national security team last week in a classified meeting about U.S. involvement in Syria.

What should we expect from now on?

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#238120: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:40:13 PM

Increasingly erratic and bone-headed decisions and statements, even moreso than usual? It's Donald. He can always find a new low.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#238121: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:41:43 PM

He's going to get even more impulsive, especially now that his main lawyer got raided by the FBI.

A shitstorm is brewing.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#238122: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:46:28 PM

He's also mad because he can't do anything about it. I'm pretty sure that handing off the case to The New York FBI office was Mueller and Rosenstein's failsafe, to make sure it got investigated, with or without them.

edited 9th Apr '18 6:50:30 PM by megaeliz

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#238123: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:47:29 PM

He's going to get even more impulsive, especially now that his main lawyer got raided by the FBI. A shitstorm is brewing.
Isn't Cohen his only lawyer?

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#238124: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:51:41 PM

Meanwhile, this is also going on...

Warning of ‘repercussions,’ Trump company lawyers seek Panama president’s help

PANAMA CITY — Lawyers representing President Trump’s company last month wrote directly to the president of Panama, asking him to intervene in a legal fight over the Trump International Hotel in the nation’s capital — and warning that the case could have “repercussions” for Panama’s reputation.

The law firm, Panama-based Britton and Iglesias, wrote in Spanish to President Juan Carlos Varela on March 22 to “urgently request your influence in relation to a commercial dispute regarding the Trump hotel.”

At the time, the majority owner of the Trump hotel — Cypriot-born investor Orestes Fintiklis — had kicked out the Trump Organization as the hotel’s manager, after a ruling from a low-level Panamanian judge. The president’s company was seeking to retake control.

The request was extraordinary: The U.S. president’s company was asking the leader of a U.S. ally to intercede on its behalf, disregarding Panama’s separation of powers.

It is the first known instance of the Trump Organization asking directly for a foreign leader’s help with a business dispute since Trump was elected.

In their letter, the Trump Organization’s lawyers did not say explicitly how they wanted the Panamanian president to help. Varela, through a spokesman, has said he has not yet taken any action.

The letter, obtained by The Washington Post, does not explicitly reference President Trump or threaten any actions by the U.S. government. The letter refers to his company as the “well-known Trump Organization.”

A spokesman for Varela, Vladi­mir Rodriguez, said that the president had seen the letter and was “evaluating the issue” but had made no decisions about whether to take action. Rodriguez said the issue is “in the hands of the corresponding authorities” but did not elaborate.

A spokesman for Panama’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs told The Post that “this is about differences between businesses, a case already attended by the court. This is not a bilateral matter between governments and not even a political issue.”

On Monday, Panama’s foreign secretary, Isabel de Saint Malo, told the Associated Press that her office had also received a copy.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#238125: Apr 9th 2018 at 6:51:57 PM

He's got the White House counsel and his subordinates....but there are limits to how they can be used.

I seriously think that Trump is going to try and fire Mueller, and damn the consequences, in the next few days. And elected Republicans aren't saying a word, we don't even have the token "don't do it, please" from Lindsay Graham yet.

Rule of law in the US is about to get put to a serious stress test. If it fails (which, in the long-term, I do not think is likely), you are well on your way to becoming the next Poland or Hungary.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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