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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#237826: Apr 7th 2018 at 8:45:00 AM

[up][up][up][up] [up]This. Also, the US has a whole lot of security geek programmers on salary. Make the NSA design an opensource build of a voting machine, then mass produce it. Or again, paper. The european union manages to coordinate EP elections that way, and well, if you are going to try to tell me that is less challenging, I will mock you.

edited 7th Apr '18 8:45:36 AM by Izeinsummer

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#237828: Apr 7th 2018 at 9:13:47 AM

[up]

That's an easy defense though - "Well, that wasn't for official business, so of course I didn't ask the EPA to foot the bill!"

Though it puts some major holes in the "security risk" story he's been peddling.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#237829: Apr 7th 2018 at 9:50:19 AM

And remember that Q Anon crap? Well they just had a March on Washington. Everyone is carrying pool noodles and spouting Pizzagate etc.

How much you want to bet that Russian Trolls had a hand in promoting/organizing this?

It would be hilarious if "Q" turned out to be a Russian troll.

edited 7th Apr '18 9:57:19 AM by megaeliz

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237830: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:03:59 AM

While Russian interference is a very real thing I think you're taking it a little too far, none of these problems are things that the Russians created wholesale. They simply encouraged existing trends and cancers within our society, so I think it's more than possible that Q is not a Russian troll.

edited 7th Apr '18 10:04:20 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#237831: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:15:43 AM

Yeah, this sounds like one random Anon on 4Chan pulling off the greatest troll job of all time.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#237832: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:19:37 AM

[up][up] I don't actually think so, I'm just saying it would be funny if it was, since it regularly shows up on the Hamilton 64 Dashboard.

And I do think it's likely they had a hand in promoting this.

edited 7th Apr '18 10:22:23 AM by megaeliz

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237833: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:28:04 AM

[up]That's fair, I just want to make sure that we don't go overboard with seeing Russian hand everywhere.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237835: Apr 7th 2018 at 10:33:13 AM

[up]I woke up later then I meant to! Clearly the Russians are involved tongue

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#237836: Apr 7th 2018 at 11:01:24 AM

lol we should start a Thanks, Russia meme.

New Survey coming this weekend!
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#237837: Apr 7th 2018 at 11:07:52 AM

<Palpatine> Do it!</Palpatine>

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
Wariolander Since: Nov, 2017
#237838: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:11:12 PM

So I'm seeing apocalyptic fear about the FOSTA-CESTA bill, that it is "the end of anonymous internet communities, period" and "China and North Korea’s internet censoring is the future we are headed towards". Is this just a bunch of fearmongering?

Imca (Veteran)
#237839: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:15:01 PM

Considering I have been to both the EU and the US I can indeed tell you that it is less chalanging, there is a reason there is a saying about..

"To an Amercian 100 years is a long time, to a European 100 miles is a long distance"

And that is because huge chunks of the country are just empty.... in a way that nothing in Europe or back home can compare to.

There are segments of the country, where you may have 1,000 square miles with single digit amounts of people living in them, and then others where you have 1000 people per square mile.

The population density is just... completely fucked here, it's also what makes police such a chalange

It's also what makes pen and paper a bad idea, since the same regions most likely to tamper with the votes are the hardest to be checked, and the least likley to know what to do with a computer any way.


Additionaly, the last thing you want is an open source voting machine, that is just begging to be tampered with.

Obscurity breeds Security

Which ties to @Ranieh too, the high cost is because the machines are a custom build so that no one has access to the tech inside them, to make tampering even harder.

3/4th of a million sounds like a lot, but when you have to make custom chips..... it's really not.

edited 7th Apr '18 12:21:03 PM by Imca

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#237840: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:19:05 PM

Additionaly, the last thing you want is an open source voting machine, that is just begging to be tampered with.

Obscurity breeds Security

That is exactly the opposite of why you would open source something. Security through obscurity is a terrible design choice if you're not going to be obscure. A high-profile target which has only been secured and analysed by the very people that made it is more likely to fall, not less.

3/4th of a million sounds like a lot, but when you have to make custom chips..... it's really not.

If they're 10,000$ now and being sold in low quantities, and you want at least 3/4 of a million—probably a million for backups, replacements, and futureproofing—then economies of scale are going to reduce the price somewhat.

edited 7th Apr '18 12:20:26 PM by RainehDaze

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#237841: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:20:04 PM

It doesn't help that the States administer the elections, with minimal central coordination.

But the real issue with US elections is that they are administered by partisan officials, which is right behind voter suppression and gerrymandering as a threat to fair elections.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Wariolander Since: Nov, 2017
#237842: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:25:44 PM

[up][up][up] Well, Russia has huge loads of empty land too, in fact they are the largest country in the world, but most of that empty land is in Asia.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#237843: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:28:06 PM

I don't know much about the inner workings of the Russian electoral system, but I'm going to assume that it's not a case study in best practices.tongue

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Imca (Veteran)
#237844: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:30:20 PM

Security through obscurity is a terrible design choice

No it is not, it is the single most effective one, the first thing you learn in cyber-security is the most vulnerable point of cyber security is the people.... the fewer people that know how it works, the more secure the system is.

Also if you read on the previous page, not even the manufacture is able to change the one that exists, so thats not a concern either.

You ever wonder why the US Nuclear Program still uses floppies for the launch program? Its not because they couldn't upgrade after the cold war, they could....

Its because have you ever tried to get ahold of a floppy disk? not a 3.5inch, but the big kind that is actually floppy..... Its a non trivial under taking in and of itself, and each barrier you can add between the average person and the working parts of security, the more secure it becomes.

If they're 10,000$ now and being sold in low quantities, and you want at least 3/4 of a million—probably a million for backups, replacements, and futureproofing—then economies of scale are going to reduce the price somewhat.

The 10,000 dollar price tag comes not only from the US, but from India which ordered enough machines to service 1.3 BILLION people, at the same time once they realised that EVMs are actualy more secure.... the price isn't coming down.

Honestly this distrust of computers from people that actualy have to use them is worrying, because it is just New Media Are Evil in play.... It is very posible to make a vunerable computer, hell it is easy too.... but EVMs go out of there way to avoid it, and do a damn good job of it in the process.

edited 7th Apr '18 12:34:24 PM by Imca

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#237845: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:44:22 PM

No it is not, it is the single most effective one, the first thing you learn in cyber-security is the most vulnerable point of cyber security is the people.... the fewer people that know how it works, the more secure the system is.

... you ignored the rest of the line. The part about how you're not doing too well on the obscurity part when you have a million machines running this software, the machines' purpose is known and of interest to malicious agents, and—unlike the equipment for firing and launching nukes—something that could conceivably be stolen on the behalf of an interested party. Mostly what you end up doing is making it slightly more difficult to find out how it works, but when someone gets the chance, it becomes impossible to do anything about it.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#237846: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:45:26 PM

It's software isn't even that relevant considered they run on a completely closed system.

To tamper with the machine means physically tearing the machine open and tearing out circuit boards and installing your own.

There's no way to actually touch the software or access it, even by the manufacturer.

Oh really when?
Imca (Veteran)
#237847: Apr 7th 2018 at 12:50:36 PM

[up] Gar has it.

Which means that to get the software known in the first place, you have to actualy make off with one of the physical machines, rip open the machine, unsodder the chips from the board after freezing them, and put them on a board capable of reading them..... and they are kept under high security when not in use to prevent just that.

And besides, if you do tamper with it, it is extreamly easy to catch, because you have to physicaly modify the machine itself.... with a chip that you have some how gained the facilities to manufacture.

Each and every machine you want to tamper with the votes of, you have to tear open the case and modify the actual circuit board with the new chip.

Because once the chip is printed, that is it, no one can access the software any more, not even the manufacturer....

And if you have ever seen a replaced chip that was part of the board, it is not something that could be missed.

edited 7th Apr '18 12:57:25 PM by Imca

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#237848: Apr 7th 2018 at 1:04:57 PM

Somehow, the idea of using ROM entirely escaped my mind. [lol]

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#237849: Apr 7th 2018 at 1:31:36 PM

Ah, so that's how nuclear war gets averted...

No-one will want to navigate DOS just to enter the launch sequence.

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#237850: Apr 7th 2018 at 1:37:45 PM

Well they could use Windows ME, it will crash if you try anything.

Inter arma enim silent leges

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