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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#237501: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:35:50 AM

Depending on how you define "business model", losing a number of elections would count as "failure" don't you think?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#237502: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:38:17 AM

He keeps doing this, though Attacking the Democratic party, saying they've 'failed' and don't represent the working class, he conducts his constant purity tests, he shows base hypocrisy and during the primary he flat out attacked southern states and indicated they didn't really matter.

[up] FDR lost more congressional seats than Obama did. LBJ lost seats. Truman lost seats. Would Sanders say FDR's business plan was a 'failure?'

Sanders has also shown a startling inability to address the backlash from white identity politics. On the eve of the election, he was still running cover for Trump's supporters, as he's kept doing.

edited 5th Apr '18 10:40:23 AM by Lightysnake

Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#237503: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:39:58 AM

I seriously thought that the photo was photoshopped. That is how awkward it looks. And there really isn't anything new to say in regards to Bernie being tone deaf as all hell. I just wish that people stopped putting him on a damned pedestal while letting him get away with things that they would (rightly) call other politicians out on.

Also, so that there is no ambiguity, it isn't that Obama shouldn't be critiqued. It is that out dear Saint Bernard did it in a state that he dismissed during his campaign, and on the anniversary of King's death. And whether purposefully or not, centered attention to himself as if he is the one to carry on King's legacy while making it seem like Obama failed to do that.

And since one of his recent books, "Where We Go From Here" alludes to King's book, "Where Do We Go From Here" in such a way to imply he has the answer, I do not feel charitable enough to give him the benefit of any doubt.

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#237504: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:40:44 AM

Also, the post 2016 successes the Democrats are seeing are largely the result of moderate/mainstream candidates who have played to local issues, not Sanders' "revolution".

And again, until he actually joins the party, he might want to shut up and focus on being next to useless as a voice for Vermont.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237505: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:41:46 AM

[up][up]It's especially galling considering his indifference to social issues in-favor overwhelming focus on his pet economic issues, benign neglect is still neglect.

edited 5th Apr '18 10:41:57 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#237506: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:41:56 AM

That's another thing...at what point does he stop getting the benefit of the doubt? At what point do we look at his history of opportunism, terrible record on criminal justice, blunt dismissal of racial issues (he called them 'demographics stuff' on the Thom Hartman show in a completely contemptuous tone), his dismissal of them during the primary, his refusal to actually admit that some racist people are actually racist and determine the problems?

Every single time there's an issue in the news getting headway, Sanders is there to throw himself into the spotlight as if he's been the greatest supporter of that issue from the start. With guns? Oh, Bernie decided to crash a protest when another legislator was speaking, bringing his own megaphone to interrupt even though he had not received an invite because his record on guns is appallingly bad. He voted to keep Gitmo open and then acted acted scandalized about it, he voted in favor with Republicans on immigration stoking the common nativist fears but now he's the best friend to the Latino community? And now he's apparently Dr. Bernie Luther King despite abandoning POC as a demographic to live in Vermont where he ignored all racial issues there and disdained them for decades.

edited 5th Apr '18 10:44:19 AM by Lightysnake

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237507: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:42:47 AM

[up]Personally, I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt when he criticized the strawman of female candidates only running on being female.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#237508: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:47:53 AM

I stopped giving him the benefit of the doubt soon after the election. Despite what some people like to say what he doesn't act like, he is a politician at the end of the day. And that is no indictment against politicians as a whole. I am just tired of him and others making it seem like he is some sort of political messiah when he isn't. Then again, I suppose sitting up on a high horse is easier than DOING SOMETHING and risk not being "morally pure" anymore.

EDIT: Also, the idea of an old guy who has been in the game for so long is somehow "anti-establishment" will never not be utterly ridiculous to me.

edited 5th Apr '18 10:49:52 AM by Kakuzan

Don't catch you slippin' now.
lara16 Since: Mar, 2018
#237509: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:48:24 AM

The Democrats' candidate losing to a ridiculous caricature of a Reality TV star would count as a rather big failure, I'd guess? Here is what he actually said.

Like, yeah, he's a tone-deaf idiot, but this is something a lot of other people have said too. He should have shut his mouth, but "Sanders is attacking Obama on the anniversary of MLK's death" is kind of framed in the worst possible way to make him look awful and not really what happened. I think it's just intellectually dishonest to put it that way.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#237510: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:52:07 AM

Except this is what Sanders always does: "Oh, Obama is a great guy, very smart, very brilliant...but he failed you and you need to see it!'

Furthermore, I am so fucking tired of this "but Hillary Clinton LOST!" narrative. Yeah, she did. Now actually put it in context. Clinton took on the entire Republican party against Trump, a candidate whose racism and stupidity was a plus, not a minus to a party that has become a white nationalist death cult. She was against that, and voter suppression efforts that almost certainly stole the state of Wisconsin, and Wikileaks/Russia....where we are finding out how insane this stuff was even to this day. Cambridge Analytica anyone? Actual fake news targeting swing voters?

She was up against the media that played up her trivial nonscandals as being of apocalyptic importance and gave Trump a pass on many of his actual scandals. And, oh, yes, a week before the election the FBI director violating all existing protocols to issue a highly prejudicial letter that almost certainly cost her the election while concealing an investigation into Trump.

Stop obfuscating this stuff and reducing it to "Clinton was a bad candidate"

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#237511: Apr 5th 2018 at 10:52:54 AM

WTF Just Happened Today hasn't come out with it's daily news dump yet, but it does have a few stories and this one caught my eye.

Reclusive hedge fund investor and multimillionaire Robert Mercer gave $2 million to a far-right neoconservative group called Secure America Now. The group worked closely with Facebook and Google to spread Islamophobic videos and ads on social media that were targeted specifically at voters in swing states who would be most susceptible to the messaging. Secure America Now has no employees, no volunteers, and is run out of a Washington, D.C. law firm. Most of the money to support the group came from just three individual donors, including Robert Mercer.

https://www.opensecrets.org/news/2018/04/exclusive-robert-mercer-backed-a-secretive-group-that-worked-with-facebook-google-to-target-anti-muslim-ads-at-swing-voters/

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#237512: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:04:43 AM

[up][up][up] The moment he could fuck off forever is when he dismissed black voters in the South after getting the receiving end of a Curb-Stomp Battle in Super Tuesday. And then refused to drop out.

Fuck that dude.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#237513: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:05:14 AM

[up][up][up] That doesn't absolve her from being a bad candidate. Most of her "baggage" to voters was not her fault, but she still had it and that's what cost her the election, most potential candidates would've won against Trump.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:07:37 AM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#237514: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:08:25 AM

[up] Would you agree that Bernie was a bad candidate as well, or no? And this isn't me trying to deflect criticism. Just that she is the only one I hear being called a bad candidate.

EDIT: Also, I believe that it is unwise assuming that another candidate would have won considering Russian interference. [down][down][nja]

edited 5th Apr '18 11:11:57 AM by Kakuzan

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#237515: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:09:01 AM

"But her baggage" is no less reductionist an argument than "But her emails". It's equating manufactured scandals with her electoral viability. Many things cost Clinton the election but none of them were her qualifications for office or whether she was respected as a politician.

  • Complacency from the Democratic apparatus that Trump could not possibly win because he was a joke candidate.
  • Russian propaganda seeded through social media and news outlets.
  • Mainstream media obsequiously committed to "both-siderism" and ignoring issues in favor of scandals.
  • A whole raft of left-wing voters turned off from the polls by incessant attacks from within the left itself, including the Sanders and Stein camps.
  • Outright malfeasance by Comey at the FBI when he reopened the email investigation a week before the election.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:09:56 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#237516: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:09:21 AM

That's where we get into counterfactuals.

Let's assume those others are the candidates. Now, assume the same voter suppression laws are in place. Assume the same propaganda campaigns, Russian meddling, etc etc. are in place with Russia and the Republicans tailoring their propaganda to the candidate, such as Bernie "gigantic unused folders of opposition research on him" Sanders. You now have a completely unprovable counterfactual.

it is so much deeper here than just 'bad candidate' that go into 'existential threats to our Democracy that need to be addressed'. Like, I really recommend the book 'How Democracies Die' which discusses some scary places we are now. The other shoe is getting worse all the time, and Republicans are doing everything they can to win with permanent minorities while embracing the politics of white Christian grievance at being 'replaced.'

edited 5th Apr '18 11:10:41 AM by Lightysnake

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#237517: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:10:14 AM

lol, to be blunt. Fuck. That.

If you're running for City Council, and your opponent is a Neo-Nazi, straight up, doesn't even hide it. And you have a constituency that's 60 Percent Nazi, and 40 percent Decent human beings, and those 60 percent vote for the Neo-Nazi and he get's the seat, does that make you a bad candidate or most of the base pieces of shit?

New Survey coming this weekend!
lara16 Since: Mar, 2018
#237518: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:10:30 AM

@Lightysnake

Sanders is absolutely an opportunist who throws demographics under the bus when it suits him — like most politicians. I'm not trying to defend him, but rather the phrasing of the whole thing, which really reminds me of clickbait. Context is important. If we want to criticize that guy, we need to look at what he's doing more closely, rather than just go "That bastard is attacking the first black president on MLK's death day" and call it a day.

I don't disagree with any of your points on Clinton, but the thing is that she simply was a bad candidate. They picked her in spite of knowing about most of that baggage already, then made all those other blunders during her campaign, and later just arrogantly assumed they'd win no matter what just because Trump was that much of a ridiculous idiot. I'm not really placing the blame on Clinton herself, but it's undeniable that they should've known how... controversial she would be.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#237519: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:11:15 AM

No. Stop with 'They picked her.'

She ran and primary voters,, IE: the common members of the party picked her. She ran to win, but because it's Clinton (and female and all that jazz, she has to be 'arrogant' to seek an office she's qualified for and, I dunno, think she'll win when all the polling indicated a victory was assured?

Clinton was warning people about Cambridge Analytics, Russia, the alt-right, etc. during the campaign and she was laughed off by the Very Serious People in the media. She's a 'bad candidate' because a foreign entity and the FBI director had to intervene to screw her over? We didn't have Shelby County v. Holder four years ago. We didn't have Russia interfering four years ago. We didn't have Comey dropping 'bombshells' four years ago and we didn't have Chris Cillizza.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:13:09 AM by Lightysnake

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#237520: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:11:48 AM

[up][up]Clinton was only controversial if you already bought into the decades of disinformation about her seeded by the right-wing press. Everything else about her made her an ideal candidate for President.

[up] I voted for her in the primary and the general. She won both elections, the electoral college aside.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:12:21 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#237521: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:12:43 AM

I’ll admit that Hillary might not have been the best choice, given that she’s been the target of a smear campaign from the right going back decades that’s definitely shaped public perception of her.

Bernie isn’t exactly better though. His foreign policy was barely coherent, and he didn’t seem to care all too much about issues outside his wheelhouse of economic inequality. I think he would have made a decent VP, but he never struck me as a very good presidential candidate.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:12:54 AM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#237522: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:13:53 AM

@Kazukan: There were only 2 viable democratic candidates that election, which was a real shame, and I think they were both bad in their own way. Clinton with the baggage, Sanders with the closet skeletons and occasional tone-deaf comments. Glad more people seem to be willing to run in 2020.

@Tactical Fox: Obama managed to win those so-called "neo-nazis" twice and could do it again were there no term limits. Charisma, unfair as it may be, plays a big part.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:16:18 AM by Grafite

Life is unfair...
Kakuzan Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to. from Knock knock, open up the door, it's real. Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Let memes die. Kill them, if you have to.
#237523: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:15:23 AM

[up][up][up] If the argument against her is that she was another "establishment" politician, I would understand it, but not completely agree. However, some make it seem like she was outstandingly corrupt compared to others when she isn't really.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:16:03 AM by Kakuzan

Don't catch you slippin' now.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#237524: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:15:59 AM

[up][up] Again, stop it with the "Clinton with the baggage" thing. To accept that argument means we must also accept the premise that any candidate for President, no matter how qualified, can be beaten out of the election by enough people willing to repeat lies and mistruths.

Our democracy cannot survive if we surrender to the idea that we must always bow and scrape to the lowest common denominator in national politics. We might as well toss in the towel if we can only elect people who pander to their audiences' false beliefs and prejudices.

edited 5th Apr '18 11:18:42 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#237525: Apr 5th 2018 at 11:16:58 AM

The thing about the corruption thing that gets me. The GOP hates the Clintons almost as much as they hate minorities. I mean they despised them.

If she REALLY did anything improper in her life of public service, her and Bill would've been burnt at the stake in a. goddamn nanosecond.

New Survey coming this weekend!

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