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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Aprilla Since: Aug, 2010
#237201: Apr 1st 2018 at 5:43:05 PM

With regard to cognitive dissonance, bigotry and unqualified opinions, I'm reminded of the following quote regarding the character Archie Bunker from All In The Family:

While O’Connor’s portrayal was sensitive and subtle (arguably too subtle), the show made a major artistic miscalculation.

Pig-headedness, bigotry, blindness to unwelcome information — these are the hallmarks not only of defective character, but of a defective mind. But at the same time having these defects offers an unique, unassailable, self-righteous certainty you literally can’t experience any other way.

It’s seductive to be a fool and a bigot. If it weren’t then these viewpoints wouldn’t persist in the world. It doesn’t matter how miserable a bigot is, he at least doesn’t suffer the indignities of uncertainty.

And people find that attractive. All things being equal, we tend to prefer people who seem confident in their opinions over ones who express doubt in what they believe. That’s particularly true when people are feeling uncertainty themselves. That’s when the research literature tells us they’re most likely to turn to narcissistic leaders, even though they’re well aware of the drawbacks.

Credit goes to Grumpynerd of Reddit/Twitter.

edited 1st Apr '18 5:45:06 PM by Aprilla

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#237202: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:03:01 PM

Sadly, as others (maybe it was even megaeliz) have pointed out in this thread, deprogramming these people is something that requires more than simply throwing facts at them. That just makes them double down. One has to challenge the worldview that compels them to latch on to such conspiracies. Why does someone need to believe that school shootings are faked? Are they just that protective of gun rights? Do they just not want to believe that a bunch of kids were brutally murdered?

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#237203: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:07:54 PM

Morbid curiosity: What do these mass-shooting deniers think happened to the students who died? Do they think they were made up?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237204: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:08:38 PM

[up]They don't think they died, that's the entire point of calling them crisis actors. They just think that it's all faked and the crying parents are paid actors (alongside the 'dead' children).

Yes it and they are disgusting.

edited 1st Apr '18 6:08:45 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#237205: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:12:28 PM

[up] and the fact the still-alive dead children don't show up after the fact? What? Witness relocation?

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237206: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:14:39 PM

[up]They go to whatever magic place crisis actors live before they go to stage this week's shooting. There is little point trying to apply logic to the illogical.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#237207: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:19:42 PM

The most sympathetic (which is still a far cry from actually being sympathetic in any sense) ones are the ones who latch on to it because they don't want to believe that a lot of children were gunned down. They don't want to live in a world where something like that can happen.

edited 1st Apr '18 6:20:14 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#237208: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:20:01 PM

[up]x6 My grandma is a Trump nut, the stereotypical Fox News loving "nutty Trump Supporter".

It's much harder to understand a how this appeals to someone who otherwise seems normal and reasonable.

And speaking of that:

Plan is:
  1. Create account that aggregates all possible personal harassment of the #MSDStrong #Parkland shooting victims.
  2. Volunteers vote yes or no on whether it constitutes personal harassment.
  3. An app connect to your Twitter acct. auto-reports the confirmed harassment.

In contrast to anti-Russia efforts, all code will be public on Github, open-source, transparent, seeking all developers’ help and contribution.

Pushing to get this online tonight. Step 1. is a repurposing of our existing collectors. Those unfortunately have to remain close to the vest, but their data output will be immediately visible.

Step 2. Is relatively simple.

Step 3. Needs some dev work.

Preferred lang is python.

Code repository will be github. Twitter account will be announced. Slack will be comms channel. Dm to help.

If we have any programmers who would be interested in helping, DM this account or @AltUSPressSec.

edited 1st Apr '18 6:35:21 PM by megaeliz

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237209: Apr 1st 2018 at 6:32:22 PM

My grandma is a Trump nut, the stereotypical Fox News loving "nutty Trump Supporter".
My sympathies, thankfully my Grandparents have fully rejected Trump.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#237210: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:00:24 PM

My stepdad voted for Trump, but he never talks politics so things have been rather peaceful. As for the reasoning on why some believe school shootings etc are faked? As someone else pointed out, some people just cannot accept something so horrible could happen. They'll twist their logic and reject reality so they won't have to accept the fact that a bunch of innocent kids were gunned down for no reason (because criminals were always logical and have reasons for doing crime, right?). Others believe that it's all staged by the government to spread fear or to push for certain issues. Makes you wonder if our government were to do such things, they'd find a more subtle way to fuck with its people.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#237211: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:01:56 PM

Also it's a way to be anti establishment, for people on a different side of the political spectrum.

Read my stories!
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#237212: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:02:53 PM

[up]Not really, crisis actor conspiracy theories is almost entirely a right-wing phenomenon.

edited 1st Apr '18 7:03:02 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MrAHR Ahr river from ಠ_ಠ Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
Ahr river
#237213: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:04:55 PM

...doesn't that prove my point? a way to be anti-establishment for people who aren't liberals?

Read my stories!
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#237214: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:06:54 PM

The unholy alliance of Fox News, Brietbart, Alt-Right Trolls, Russians, etc, has become a powerful Disinformation weapon, I think.

edited 1st Apr '18 7:09:20 PM by megaeliz

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#237215: Apr 1st 2018 at 7:14:22 PM

The "party of small government" has always couched itself as anti-establishment, in some ways. Doesn't mean they are, but they try to dress it up that way.

It's been fun.
singularityshot Since: Dec, 2012
#237216: Apr 1st 2018 at 9:57:44 PM

To me, the error is ours in misunderstanding Ockham's Razor.

We often state Ockham's Razor as the simplest solution is the solution most likely to be correct. That logic leads to the dismissal of most conspiracy theories, as by definition a conspiracy theory is a complex solution.

However, Ockham's Razor actually states that the solution with the fewest assumptions is most often correct. This logic is different: to explain a school shooting, we have to make quite a few assumptions. "Why did he do it, why this school, why did no one intervene" - each require their own assumptions that is often based on no more than a gut feeling. On the other hand, there is only one assumption at the root of most conspiracy theories: that the whole thing is a set up.

Ergo, on the fewest assumptions logic the conspiracy theory is more likely to be true. It allows for a more internally consistent worldview where you don't have to question as much, and are thus more comfortable. It also means that because it is all a show, controlled by forces way beyond your understanding, that nobody expects you to be able to change it.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#237217: Apr 1st 2018 at 10:17:08 PM

[up]Of course, Occam's Razor doesn't apply when one looks at the details. The assumptions one must make to actually explain how a conspiracy theory would work — the coverups required, the forensics faked, etc. — are legion.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#237218: Apr 2nd 2018 at 6:11:18 AM

That's just wholly misapplying Occam's Razor. All of the assumptions for not-a-conspiracy-theory still apply to the conspiracy theory except for the "why it happened". Why this school? Why did no uninformed member of the public intervene? Then you add on all the complexities that a conspiracy theory requires.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#237219: Apr 2nd 2018 at 6:17:32 AM

The act of using crisis actors and staging the shooting are by itself far more complicated than what is enough to apply the Occam's Razor to show how the conspiracy theory doesn't hold any water.

Inter arma enim silent leges
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#237220: Apr 2nd 2018 at 6:53:15 AM

Most of which include how did they get the family in on the ruse, and whether or not the children are actually alive? a "yes" in turns opens up the possibility of a Changeling scenario (as they would had to been able to fool the families into thinking they are their children and total strangers into thinking they are children at all) which if taken therefore adds more questions in the vein of "how is this even possible?" which then leads into an assumption of technology more advanced than what is known being involved (a conspiracy theory staple), which then begs the question "how did they procure it then?". Another branch is "who would gain by doing this in the first place?" in which case expect a tie in to the Illuminati, Knights Templar, the UN, the Government or another entity and the response to whatever answer being "Why?", which would lead into it being repeated ad infinitium, possibly opening up other branches in the process.

If Conspiracy Theories are narratives, describing one is like explaining a byzantine Kudzu Plot. Therefore they are the likeliest to get cut out by Occam's Razor.

edited 2nd Apr '18 7:04:01 AM by MorningStar1337

DrunkenNordmann from Exile Since: May, 2015
#237221: Apr 2nd 2018 at 7:16:13 AM

[up] Not to mention that conspiracy theories are usually based on the ludicrous belief that a massive number of people can somehow not only be competent enough to pull such a thing off without a hitch, but would also be able to keep their mouths shut about the whole thing.

edited 2nd Apr '18 7:17:08 AM by DrunkenNordmann

We learn from history that we do not learn from history
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#237222: Apr 2nd 2018 at 7:21:09 AM

Doubly so with kids. They'll blab to anyone about anything.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#237223: Apr 2nd 2018 at 7:25:52 AM

In an age of phone cameras everywhere and facebook, keeping things hidden is an impossible endeavour.

Besides, corrupt government officials can't keep their mouths shut about actual criminal stuff they get caught committing, let alone keeping their lids shut over a conspiracy that would involve more than a few hundred people in a complex scheme.

Inter arma enim silent leges
GameGuruGG Vampire Hunter from Castlevania (Before Recorded History)
Vampire Hunter
#237224: Apr 2nd 2018 at 8:53:07 AM

In addition, actual conspiracies generally never stay secret in the modern day. Take Watergate for example... That was an actual factual conspiracy, and it was taken down by basically two intrepid reporters (of The Washington Post, even!) and a disgruntled employee.

Wizard Needs Food Badly
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#237225: Apr 2nd 2018 at 9:05:13 AM

And there's no shortage of the latter in the Trump administration


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