TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236601: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:10:20 PM

[up]x5 Absolutely, they aren't irrational savages or backwards lunatics. And they aren't China's friends either.

They should have sent a poet.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#236602: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:13:44 PM

[up]x4 I wonder if she thinks the Pee-Pee tape exists?

edited 25th Mar '18 3:16:07 PM by megaeliz

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#236603: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:14:38 PM

[up]X7 The media keeps insisting that North Korea is rational, that there’s a method to the madness, exactly like they do with Trump, like they do with the entire international system.

That’s not reality, the world isn’t governed by a bunch of Realists who weigh every move before taking it, we’ve seen that time and time again in history, Hitler, Saddam, Gadafii, the Argentinian junta, Trump, Assad, the world is full of irrational actors who go with their gut, who are to enveloped by paranoia to see anything but a need for more violence.

It’s a bloody miracle that it’s taken till now for a global power to end up in the hands of such a person, but North Korea has been that way for a long time.

That’s why they have a nuclear program, they don’t need it to deter to the US or South Korea (conventional forces and the suicide jacket of refugees does that easily enough), they have it because they’re paranoid and also have nutjobs within the regime that need to be kept happy.

Those same groups are going to exist if we get a crisis situation, Kim will have to keep them happy or else, he’d look weak internally if he didn’t respond to a US attack with force.

In the event of a US attack being announced Kim’s only rational play is to strike back with limited force to try and deter the US. If he does nothing he’s killed either by the US or an internal coup, if he responded with nuclear weapons than it snuclear war and everybody dies, if he responds with limited force than he can stave off a coup while also trusting the US to not escalate to all out war.

[up]X5 I will admit that I expected the tape to be not with a pornstar but with his daughter. Though there’s time for both. *pukes*

So...how about a betting pool? Who will leave the white house by Friday?

I’d like to place a bet on the VA secretary being ousted. tongue

edited 25th Mar '18 3:16:54 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236604: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:24:05 PM

[up] I wouldn't call it rationality so much as I'd call it motivated self-interest or realpolitik. Or, instrumental rationality rather than epistemic rationality. The media doesn't usually portray North Korea as rational, they portray them as dumb hillbillies itching for a war and too stupid to know it'll cost them. They aren't that though, they may be a brutal and repressive regime but they're fairly canny and have a knack for politics. Their nuclear arsenal has also given them a deterrent quality conventional arms and refugees could never provide, as we saw in the Middle East circa 2003.

If Trump announces a US attack, what are the odds of it actually happening? Just ask yourself that when you think about what the North Koreans might do.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:27:42 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#236605: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:30:53 PM

I think it wouldn’t happen, but I think they’re are enough paranoid people within the North Korea regime who think it would happen that they’d respond in some fashion.

The Soviets put the Far East Army on alert when Regan made an unbroadcast sound check joke, this would be that but on a bigger scale with a much less rational opponent.

Here’s the thing, you know Trump is crazy, I know Trump is crazy, has anybody actully told the North Koreans? Because we’re betting on them writing what he says off as insane ramblings, it’s not about what you and I know but what they know.

Also we clearly consume different media, I’m used to seeing North Korea bigger up as some super rational actors that is playing 4D chess.

Also the Iraq comparison is absurd and just hurts your credibility, Iraq had already been defeated in one war and defanged, it posed no serious security threat to any US allies or non-native civilian populations. North Koreans conventional means are far beyond that of Saddam’s Iraq, outside of Russia or China I can’t think of a national that posses such a great conventional threat to a US allied civilian population, even Iran doesn’t have that reach.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:33:48 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236606: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:35:35 PM

[up] Well, we're talking war here, not a 24 hour general alert. They're institutionally paranoid, but they're pragmatic as well. And North Korea has access to all the same media you and I do so I'm pretty sure they can form a decent picture of Trump. Considering how they've been playing him so far I think they know exactly what he is.

I'd be interested to know if the media you get that vibe from is more conservative or liberal? The impression I usually get is that the further down the horseshoe you go the more intelligently they're portrayed, with left and right-of-center mass media typically portraying them as insane and stupid.

Iraq was always considered to have a well-equipped military, though I use 2003 as a comparison rather than the Gulf War to highlight a similar technological disparity, rather than a military threat. One of the big reasons North Korea supposedly began developing nuclear weapons is because Saddam had tried and failed, and their military leadership in the early 2000s believed that the only way to avoid the same fate was to develop nukes.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:40:57 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#236607: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:42:09 PM

Does the entire regime have access to the same media as you and I? The top level people assigned to pay attention to the outside world will have access to it, but that’s not the entire regime and being assigned to follow it is not the same as living it.

I think that after face to face talks (if they happen) the North Koreans will know better who it is they’re dealing with, but even then, not everyone will be in that room.

Also I’m not talking full scale war, I’m talking moderate scale military action, that’s something that’s been done before, similar to the 2010 incident where South Korean exercises resulted in shelling from North Korea, but probably bigger.

As for my media, I’m talking largely about British media and the online content linked here, so not typical American stuff.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:43:02 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#236608: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:51:19 PM

RE Shulkin,

So on the bad side of things, he was an Obama holdover and Trump will probably replace him with someone awful.

However, on the good side of things, the guy was insanely corrupt and I'm glad he's going.

Interestingly and weighing on the bad side, apparently Ike Perlmutter both recommended Shulkin to Trump and is behind his firing and suggesting replacements.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#236609: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:53:10 PM

Interesting editorial in the NY Times.

     Stop Shielding Gun Makers 
The survivors of the Parkland shooting have led a national call to action, and the nation has responded. Students have walked out of their schools in protest, businesses have cut ties with the N.R.A., and our collective frustration culminated in the March for Our Lives this weekend.

Senator Charles Schumer has proposed three measures to reduce gun violence: expanded background checks, protective orders to disarm individuals at risk of violence or self-harm, and an assault weapons ban. These proposals are critically important. But there is another effective response that has been largely ignored: repeal of a law that prevents suits against the gun industry

A bedrock principle of the American legal system is accountability for wrongdoing. Businesses that cause harm may be held legally responsible in a court of law. Through the imposition of financial liability, our legal system encourages businesses to reduce harm to consumers by making their products safer and disclosing the risks associated with their use.

Thanks in part to the accountability imposed by lawsuits, society knows more about the dangers of smoking, and tobacco companies market their products more responsibly. Automakers continually develop and install new safety features, and these innovations deliver results: From 1975 to 2016, the rate of motor vehicle deaths decreased by nearly half. While motor vehicle deaths have declined over the last two decades, firearm deaths have not: According to the most recent statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, more people now die from firearms than motor vehicle accidents.

This disturbing reality exists in large part because, unlike other industries, gun manufacturers and sellers are shielded from legal accountability. Bowing to years of intensive N.R.A. lobbying, Congress enacted the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act in 2005. The law bars most suits against gun manufacturers and sellers for the harm they cause, immunizing the gun industry from accountability for the tens of thousands of gun deaths that occur in the United States each year.

Young people — and, as the Parkland survivors Emma González and David Hogg so eloquently remind us, young people of color — are hit especially hard. A recent study shows that firearms are now the third-leading cause of death for children ages 1 to 17 and, according to C.D.C. data, the leading cause of death for 15- to 24-year-olds. Numerous scientific studies indicate that keeping guns in a home endangers its residents. Studies have also shown that guns in the home are far more likely to be used in criminal assaults, homicides, suicides and accidental shootings than in self-defense.

Yet the law enables the gun industry to advertise its products as safety devices that consumers need to protect themselves and their families without fear of legal liability.

After the Las Vegas shooting, in which 58 people were massacred and hundreds more injured, lawsuits were filed against the companies that organized the concert, own the hotel and made and sold the bump stock device the killer used to increase the firing rate of his weapons — everyone but the companies that made and sold his guns. That is because the gun manufacturers and sellers have a weapon that is not available to the concert organizers and hotel owner — statutory immunity.

The N.R.A. claims that the act is necessary to protect gun manufacturers and sellers against unfounded lawsuits. Unlike cars, hammers, tobacco and alcohol, its argument goes, guns are intended to kill. But our legal system has multiple checks to filter out lawsuits that lack merit. There is no reason for the gun industry to have special protections that are unavailable to other businesses that sell products that pose far less risk of harm.

One element of the N.R.A.’s argument is true: Guns are inherently dangerous. But there are proven ways to make them safer. One study found that more than 40 percent of accidental gun deaths could have been avoided if the gun was equipped with at least one safety feature. Because of the act, gun manufacturers have no incentive to include such features.

After the Parkland shooting, American Outdoor Brands, Smith & Wesson’s parent company and the manufacturer of the weapon used in the Parkland shooting, announced that it would not “manufacture and market” products with additional safety features (including trigger-locking technology) and that it does not “invest in R. & D. in this area” because doing so would be “irresponsible.” Perhaps the repeal of the law would change this cynical narrative.

After the Parkland shooting, American Outdoor Brands, Smith & Wesson’s parent company and the manufacturer of the weapon used in the Parkland shooting, announced that it would not “manufacture and market” products with additional safety features (including trigger-locking technology) and that it does not “invest in R. & D. in this area” because doing so would be “irresponsible.” Perhaps the repeal of the law would change this cynical narrative.

After the Parkland shooting, American Outdoor Brands, Smith & Wesson’s parent company and the manufacturer of the weapon used in the Parkland shooting, announced that it would not “manufacture and market” products with additional safety features (including trigger-locking technology) and that it does not “invest in R. & D. in this area” because doing so would be “irresponsible.” Perhaps the repeal of the law would change this cynical narrative.

Gun sellers likewise enjoy broad immunity. They can sell dozens of weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition to a single buyer who could resell them on the black market or plan a mass shooting without fear of legal accountability. Federal law requires only a perfunctory background check, and the employee handling the background form may be an untrained clerk. Without the threat of civil liability, gun sellers have no incentive to adopt more rigorous procedures or to provide training to their employees, which could stop a violent tragedy at the point of sale.

Democrats in Congress have introduced a bill to repeal the Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act. Congress should pass that bill. The gun industry doesn’t deserve a special legal perk that immunizes it from liability. And the victims of gun violence deserve their day in court.

edited 25th Mar '18 3:58:58 PM by megaeliz

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#236610: Mar 25th 2018 at 3:57:58 PM

I am not sure that gun makers should be responsible for gun crime, seems a little off target. Unsafe weapons, maybe.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#236611: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:06:04 PM

Re: Gun lawsuits ... as much as I'd kind of like to see them squirming in court from hundreds of lawsuits, it'd be a bit like the family of the woman who was run over and killed suing the manufacturer of the car that killed her, instead of the Nazi asshole whose foot was on the pedal. Lawsuits against other companies were because their products hurt or killed people when they weren't supposed to. In every mass shooting, the gun has performed exactly as intended. sad

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#236612: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:07:47 PM

Wonderful, the Russian Bots are now tweeting crap about #MarchForOurLives

It's the number one top hashtag, and is nearly off the charts high.

edited 25th Mar '18 4:21:28 PM by megaeliz

Imca (Veteran)
#236613: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:09:55 PM

Of course they are, over half the country disagrees with it, and it is a pashionate issue for both sides.

The Russian bots only exist to sow discord, they don't care about who the issue aligns too and this is the perfect wedge right now.

The real question is if the right wing will notice the bots now, which I think is a yes.... then go right back to ignoring when there helping....

edited 25th Mar '18 4:11:45 PM by Imca

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236614: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:17:40 PM

[up]x7 Well, your average North Korean farmer wouldn't but all of their political and military organizations do. They kind of have to, to be able to engage in politics at an international scale. They also have a fairly wide-ranging intelligence system, spying has been a consistent issue in South Korea and the European countries that still do business with them.

If you want an example look at their handling of Trump, they played to his insecurities easily and got him all riled up so they could look like hot shit. I'm sure the teams they send to the summit will be prepared to deal with him, as much as anyone can really be for someone unpredictable like Trump.

Something like the 2010 incident is possible, I'd count that as part of the border harassment I mentioned but I don't think it would really go much beyond that if even to there. They wouldn't want to blow any potential situation up too far. If you notice they will typically stay below a certain threshold with things like that, they're always provocative but not so provocative as to justify further escalation.

edited 25th Mar '18 4:17:57 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#236615: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:28:33 PM

Also, North Korea, like other communist nations, has sent military advisors and their own troops to aid other fellow communist nations in their wars. They do participate in wars outside their own borders.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236616: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:45:27 PM

[up] Surprisingly, they have good diplomatic relations with many countries in Africa. A lot of the Soviet knock-off military gear those countries use is produced in North Korea, and they offer special forces training as an incentive for economic cooperation.

They should have sent a poet.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#236617: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:47:25 PM

Part of the interview with Stormy Daniels can be watched here

I don't want to know, but I want to know.

edited 25th Mar '18 4:50:33 PM by megaeliz

Wariolander Since: Nov, 2017
#236618: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:47:30 PM

[up]x6 Twitter should just be shut down. They are nothing but trouble.

edited 25th Mar '18 4:48:04 PM by Wariolander

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#236619: Mar 25th 2018 at 4:50:48 PM

Watching the Stormy Daniels interview. The recounting of their liaison is hilariously awkward.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#236620: Mar 25th 2018 at 5:07:05 PM

[up][up][up][up]

Infamously, Mugabe's bout of ethnic cleansing was carried out by the North Korean-trained Fifth Brigade.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#236621: Mar 25th 2018 at 5:24:29 PM

So, what's the chance of the pee-pee tape existing now, you think?

Based on what she said, I'd say it's significantly higher.

Also,

A lie injected propaganda arm of the republican party which has been overtaken by Trump who himself is overtaken by Putin, thus making this television show a mechanism of Kremlin's corrupt, state sponsored media...

And Friends

is the best description of Fox and Friends that I've ever heard.

edited 25th Mar '18 5:34:13 PM by megaeliz

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#236622: Mar 25th 2018 at 5:52:59 PM

Remember that Colbert is (I think deliberately) misrepresenting what the tape is for comedy purposes, it’s not a tape of Trump enjoying piss play, it’s a tape of Trump having prostitutes piss on a bed Obama used.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#236623: Mar 25th 2018 at 5:56:57 PM

[up] I know, I know. Still it's gross and disturbing either way.

And that is still the best description I've seen of Fox and Friends. At this point they should just declare their alliance to Putin and be done with it. (Yeah, I know it's not actually a Kremlin News outlet, but it pretty much functions as one.)

And back to the interview itself, the fact that she reminded him of his daughter is creepy.

edited 25th Mar '18 6:12:36 PM by megaeliz

Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#236624: Mar 25th 2018 at 6:14:08 PM

http://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-43531528

Killer Mike made a statement defending his reason for owning a weapon and calls out those who are using the pro-gun control movement for their own purposes.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#236625: Mar 25th 2018 at 6:17:21 PM

[up] For the millionth time, nobody actually wants to take away your stupid guns!


Total posts: 417,856
Top