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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#236326: Mar 23rd 2018 at 12:37:39 PM

[up][up]Which is why we had things like Irish lynch mobs targetting Chinese immigrant railroad workers.

[up]Yeah, everything Trump does makes a lot more sense when you keep in mind that he's an unstable immature narcissist.

edited 23rd Mar '18 12:38:58 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#236327: Mar 23rd 2018 at 12:40:18 PM

[up][up] I saw that. What I wonder is how this will affect the aforementioned talks with North Korea. I seriously doubt he's going to actually get them to give up their nuclear missiles.

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#236328: Mar 23rd 2018 at 12:58:45 PM

[[quoteblockI was operating under the assumption that any de-nuking deal would involve a major drawback of the US presence in the South. [[/quoteblock]] Ah, sorry, I thought you meant a more immediate withdrawal for the talks to happen.

Trump is bringing in new people based not on policy (where he’s very changeable) but on loyalty to him and a willingness to kiss his ass.
Status quo, is your argument?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236329: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:05:49 PM

South Korea's armed forces are pretty capable on their own. They're not that big but they're well equipped and they've tailored their armed forces specifically to take out massed formations like what the N Ks would throw at them. If a drawdown of US forces did happen I'd imagine they'd be more or less okay.

They should have sent a poet.
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#236330: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:15:12 PM

But North Korea has nukes, and South Korea doesn't.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236331: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:18:43 PM

Arguably South Korea doesn't need them, considering if North Korea starts nuking we'll clean their clocks. Even if we draw down our military down we still have mutual defense treaties with South Korea that allow us to cover them with our nuclear umbrella.

They should have sent a poet.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#236332: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:19:02 PM

South Korea has our nukes, or is supposed to — if NK attacks them, we retaliate. God only knows if Trump would keep that promise, though.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#236333: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:30:35 PM

So taking the recent appointment of Bolton into account, what would be the best-case and worst-case scenarios for how a confrontation with North Korea would go down?

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236334: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:35:20 PM

Well, in every case North Korea ends up screwed. The only real question is how much damage they inflict before they go down. They know that a war means the end for them, so they won't be the ones to start it. And we know that a war means South Korea gets the shit kicked out of it, so we aren't gonna start it either. Barring some unbelievable diplomatic incident at the summit, war is unlikely. Bolton doesn't really change the equation in a significant way.

Worrying about war on the Korean peninsula is unproductive.

edited 23rd Mar '18 1:36:25 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#236335: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:40:18 PM

Bolton wants a preemptive strike on North Korea, and Trump's got the same mindset. If they get into a positive feedback loop, then it might just happen. If it does, and NK retaliates by immolating Seoul, or vaporizing Guam, then we've got a real pickle on our hands.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#236336: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:43:44 PM

Something interesting and local:

Risch holds up spending bill, angry over naming of wilderness after former rival Andrus

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article206506889.html

A lot of things can go haywire when Congress tries to pass an omnibus spending bill at the last minute.

But Idaho GOP Sen. Jim Risch raised a lot of eyebrows, and plenty of ire, when he decided to risk blowing up the spending bill to wage a political battle.

The battle he chose? Preventing the renaming of 90,769-acres of Central Idaho wilderness the Cecil D. Andrus-White Clouds Wilderness. Andrus died in August.

Idaho GOP Rep. Mike Simpson had added to the legislation a provision to honor Idaho’s renowned Democratic governor. And Risch did not like this at all.

The showdown, which began unfolding late Thursday night, quickly spread across social media and online as reporters covering the Senate vote tried to figure out why a deceased governor from Idaho was stalling things.

A follow-up:

Idaho lawmaker says he met with GOP resistance when he tried to honor Andrus

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/state-politics/article206591389.html

Idaho Sen. Jim Risch isn’t the only taking jabs at former Gov. Cecil Andrus’ legacy.

In a more subtle move, some members of the Idaho Legislature allegedly took umbrage with a Democratic lawmaker’s attempt to pass a resolution supporting Simpson’s efforts to honor Andrus for his work in protecting Idaho’s natural resources.

The House Resources and Conservation Committee in early February agreed to hold a hearing on the resolution proposed by House Minority Leader Mat Erpelding, a Boise Democrat who was friends with Andrus and considered him a mentor.

The simple resolution (HCR 42) stated: “(W) support the efforts of United States Congressman Mike Simpson of Idaho to redesignate the White Clouds Wilderness in the Sawtooth and Challis National Forests in the State of Idaho as the Cecil D. Andrus-White Clouds Wilderness in honor of former Idaho Governor and Secretary of the Interior Cecil D. Andrus. ... we honor and recognize Cecil D. Andrus for his work in protecting Idaho's natural resources.”

But Erpelding said when he got wind of what some GOP members of the committee were going to do, he pulled it.

“Several members of the committee were going to make a fool of me by voting to kill it and generate press coverage,” Erpelding told the Statesman on Friday. “Rather than risk a partisan snipe on Andrus’s name, I pulled the bill.”

Erpelding would not say which members were going to vote against the bill. The committee comprises 15 Republicans and three Democrats.

Erpelding had stayed quiet about why he pulled the bill until he learned of Risch’s objections to one of the provisions in the massive spending bill renaming a wilderness preserve for Cecil Andrus. Risch threatened to keep the chamber from voting on the bill.

ElSquibbonator Since: Oct, 2014
#236337: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:46:40 PM

[up][up] See, that's the problem. Trump wanted a war with North Korea from the moment he entered office. He just needs all those pesky moderates out of the way to do it. And I'd say he's pretty close to that point right now. If no pre-emptive strike is made on North Korea by, say, July, I'll be genuinely surprised.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236338: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:47:00 PM

Well, at that point the it would be a nuclear retaliation, and North Korea would find themselves gone. They have no real way to deflect an all out attack from our nuclear triad, and I don't think we'd spare any expense to wipe them off the map. That wouldn't be great, even 10% of our nuclear arsenal could cause a nuclear winter effect in the region and a small but noticeable cooling worldwide.

I find it highly, highly unlikely that it'll get to that point though. The realities of a first strike on North Korea make it pretty improbable outside of some sort of of left field doomsday scenario.

[up] Get ready to be surprised.

edited 23rd Mar '18 1:48:02 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#236339: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:48:12 PM

Italians and Irish were not considered White and were treated the same way Latinos and Muslims are for a long time in the US.

I've been working on a little project regarding this, a collection of quotes about American xenophobia, anti-immigration, and anti any religion except Protestant Christianity. Long story short, the only groups to consistently be considered white in America are the English, Scandinavians, and maybe a few other pockets of Europe like the French.

The Irish, Italians, Germans, Austrians, Polish, Russians, Belgians etc., have all taken turns being the non-white menacing immigrants who were going to destroy America, outbreed the decent white people, then convert us all to their horrible ways, or worse, put the US under the influence of the Pope.

The rhetoric is often almost a word for word copy of what you hear used about immigrant groups and religions that are a hot topic today. For bonus points, sometimes a nationality or ethnicity that had been the target of discrimination a few generations before is later held up as an ideal immigrant group, that is the backbone of the country, unlike whatever new group was coming over now.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#236340: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:49:43 PM

[up][up] If we don't go to war with North Korea, it'll be because actual sane people in the administration prevent Trump from pushing the button. It will not reflect on any virtues of our President or his immediate circle of advisers.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236341: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:53:06 PM

[up] Oh I agree, though I think most likely what would stop up any potential war plan is the fact that the military has little interest in fighting that war. Any first strike would have to be advised on, planned and wargamed by the Do D, and the Joint Chiefs have made it pretty clear they consider North Korea a no-win scenario when it comes to military force.

They should have sent a poet.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#236342: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:55:29 PM

If it does, and NK retaliates by immolating Seoul, or vaporizing Guam, then we've got a real pickle on our hands.

That's... kind of a really flippant way of describing the loss of hundreds of thousands of people.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#236343: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:57:45 PM

I'd say a nuclear exchange would be a major bummer.

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#236344: Mar 23rd 2018 at 1:58:29 PM

[up][up]Not really, it's not like any word could possibly summarize how awful that would be.

[up]Ha, agreed [lol]

edited 23rd Mar '18 1:58:49 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#236345: Mar 23rd 2018 at 2:00:07 PM

It would darken a few days. Seriously, is there any way to express the magnitude of such a catastrophe that doesn't come across as inadequate to some degree? My only comfort would be that it wouldn't hurt anyone I know, personally. Otherwise it's an unimaginable horror.

edited 23rd Mar '18 2:01:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#236346: Mar 23rd 2018 at 2:00:44 PM

It would darken a few days. Seriously, is there any way to express the magnitude of such a catastrophe that doesn't come across as inadequate to some degree?

There is not.

edited 23rd Mar '18 2:01:09 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#236348: Mar 23rd 2018 at 2:02:45 PM

[up][up]With things like that flippant is usually better.

Here's some door art from a minuteman silo. [1]

edited 23rd Mar '18 2:02:58 PM by archonspeaks

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#236349: Mar 23rd 2018 at 2:07:09 PM

[up][up]I love it grin

[up]Absolutely, and honestly it's for the best. None of us are going to start supporting nuclear war just because we're flippant, but that flippancy can allow us to acknowledge overwhelming horror without shutting down.

edited 23rd Mar '18 2:15:45 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#236350: Mar 23rd 2018 at 2:15:15 PM

Again, a song that is still relevant:

edited 23rd Mar '18 2:15:41 PM by TheWildWestPyro


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