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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#193201: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:22:18 PM

I'm scared, annoyed, and sick of the division and tribalism. Extremists like Hodgkinson are going to tear this country apart.

I'm also frankly afraid that Hodgkinson's political leanings will be used to further discredit the left.

At least no one died. Scalise is okay physically. I don't see how something like this couldn't affect you mentally. That comes later with traumatic events.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:27:06 PM by BearyScary

Do not obey in advance.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#193202: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:22:36 PM

[up][up]

Though to be fair, you know that person will be looked at as a "Person of Interest", and charges may be filed if they do have a direct connection to the actual shooter. While the odds of that being the case are slim, it's not impossible.

Also echoing the criticism of "gun free zones" inhibiting on-duty law enforcement - they're (typically) given an explicit exception because it's recognized as part of their job. The suggestion of Congressmembers carrying guns for protection that was mentioned on the last page (can't see the Tweet, so don't know who made the claim exactly), however, is objectively BS for one simple reason: who the hell would have their gun on them while playing or practicing an athletic activity? Not only would it be a nigh-literal case of Juggling Loaded Guns, it would at the very least be supremely uncomfortable.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#193203: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:23:20 PM

[up] have a problem? Add MORE GUNS!

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#193204: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:25:01 PM

@Hodor: It's a sign of the times, and of the rot of civil society; people with ideologies much closer to the norm are coming to believe that our system is beyond saving, and the only hope is to displace it with violence. On some of my darker days, I've wondered whether they might be right. On the darkest days I know they're wrong because it's all futile and the human species is simply doomed to die screaming from our own hubris, selfishness, and recklessness.

@BearyScary: The body count from militant leftists, their counterparts on the right, and the suppression of those groups by the state was in the thousands in the civil rights and labor movement. We haven't gotten to that point yet, but I feel like we're headed in that direction.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:27:26 PM by CaptainCapsase

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#193205: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:25:19 PM

Somehow, I very much doubt schools or churches are made safer by the presence of more guns. (Plus the fact that some idiots on the Republican side actually suggested teachers should be armed probably caused people to double down on that idea. Like, actual elected Republicans suggested this. Because somehow letting a teacher have a gun while surrounded by teenagers sounds like a fucking excellent idea.)

In any case, it seems like it was the weird lack of security around Congress members was slightly at fault? They've been talking about it on the news and now I'm wondering if it's strange that we don't have regular security for Congress members, compared to the rest of the world.

But the idea that "gun free zones" somehow makes things worse in these situations is itself rather heated rhetoric, of the "guns always good" variety. Even if it doesn't feel heated to you, it's got a nasty history behind it. There's nothing about calling the police into a shooting that would prevent them from using guns, either, and in most cases they're called in after shit's gone down anyway.

Guns are not a cure all, Bense, but Republicans talk like they are and you're teetering on that edge here.

[up] You know, as heated as things get, I'm pretty sure that the idea that our problems must be solved by violence are still a fringe idea.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:26:44 PM by AceofSpades

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#193207: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:29:26 PM

[up][up] The persistent political violence we've seen over the past year or so suggests that may not be the case any more; it's still likely a small minority of people who support political violence, and an even smaller number that are prepared to throw their lives away for their causes, but that's all it takes for this sort of stuff to become an everyday occurrence.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:29:40 PM by CaptainCapsase

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#193208: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:30:18 PM

1) It's far too early to call for gun control when we don't know how Mr. Hodgkinson obtained his firearms and whether he violated the current laws. If he was already breaking the law when he got them then obviously more gun control laws wouldn't have deterred him much. One thing that is clear is that if the ballpark had been a "gun free zone" that required the capitol police to leave their firearms behind while guarding Representative Scalise then far more people would have been injured or killed.

What.

Police enjoy a special right to carry regardless of what civilian law on the matter is. It's kind of the entire premise of a police force: that they are government agents granted special privilege to determine when force is acceptable and to employ that force in order to preserve the safety and wellbeing of the civilian populace. Why on Earth would a "gun free zone" apply to police?

The only difference a "gun free zone" would have made is that anyone who happened to notice the shooter with the weapon in his possession would have legal cause to raise alarm then and there, before he had a chance to start shooting.

As noted, he asked specifically whether it was Republicans or Democrats on the field. He was talking to people while carrying a rifle and a semiautomatic pistol. There was ample opportunity to have police converge on him, but because he was permitted to be carrying those weapons, nobody did anything until he started shooting.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#193209: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:31:40 PM

@Capsase- Not completely on this topic, but I noted in your above post on the "existential struggle" that you still seem to be engaging in the bothsidesism wherein you treat Democratic efforts to win through maximizing voter turn-out as equivalent to Republican efforts at voter suppression.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#193210: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:33:21 PM

Basically, the reason this shooting was even able to happen is because a man carrying a deadly weapon into a ballpark where government officials are is not considered to be a threat to anyone's life if he's white.

Ahmed Hodgkinson or Tyrese Hodgkinson would have been shot on sight the moment he set foot in the place.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193211: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:34:53 PM

Examples of stuff Trump didn't actually do, but got treated as if it were a big deal:

Huff Post and other online outlets running a video of Trump "blowing a kiss" to James Comey. Particularly ironic now that Trump fired him.

The U.K. Daily Mail report that Niel Gorsuch, Trump's first nominee to the Supreme Court, had run a "Facism Forever Club" during high school. It was a joke in his yearbook entry.

CNN reporting that Nancy Sinatra wasn't happy about Trump using "My Way". Sinatra tweeted "Why do you lie, CNN?"

The Washington Post blasting Trump for giving a speech in front of the "sacrosanct" CIA Memorial Wall. Obama did the same thing without complaint.

A Time reporter saying that Trump had removed the bust of Martin Luther King Jr. from the Oval Office. It hadn't been.

The AP report that Trump was about to mobilize 100,000 National Guard troops to remove immigrants. Completely false.

The NPR report that Kuwait's ambassador was holding his National Day party at the Trump hotel and that the president would be there. In fact the Kuwaitis where there the week before Trump was.

I'm sure there are more examples out there.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#193212: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:35:41 PM

[up][up][up] I'm not, because the democratic counterpart could easily entail political reforms which remove blatantly unfair elements of our system like the fixed number of senators (which is utter madness when the most populous state has more than 50 times the population of the least populous state) or the electoral college. That would necessarily reduce the voting power of certain demographic blocs, who would undoubtedly resent the democrats for reducing their voting power. It's for the best, but it would not be without consequences, even though it desperately needs to happen.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:38:00 PM by CaptainCapsase

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193213: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:40:07 PM

I very much doubt there was "ample opportunity" for Hodgkins to be spotted with his rifle and pistol before he opened fire "because firearms are legal in Virginia" or "because he was white".

People openly carrying firearms around ballparks tend to get reported to the police, unless they are wearing a police uniform.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:40:42 PM by Bense

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#193214: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:42:15 PM

The Washington Post blasting Trump for giving a speech in front of the "sacrosanct" CIA Memorial Wall. Obama did the same thing without complaint.

IIRC correctly, wasn't that because he was standing there mostly talking about himself in front of a memorial and, to an extent, obliquely insulting the very agency in question?

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#193215: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:42:28 PM

[up] even in a big gun carry state (not sure Virginia is such but my question stands).

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#193216: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:43:40 PM

[up][up][up][up]I've never really had much of an issue with the Senate the way it is. If you except that premise that each state should be represented as an equal political entity (which might not) then them having an equal number of senators makes sense. Otherwise, I think it would be better to just get rid of the Senate all together.

A bigger issue to me is that the number of House sets being set, while the population continues to grow, means that representation inevitably gets smaller per person, and meaningfulness of one person representing an entire district like that starts to crumble.

And also get rid of the Electoral College like you said.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:44:12 PM by LSBK

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#193217: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:44:15 PM

[up][up][up] It was because he was trying to imply the CIA had started the Iraq War purely as an imperialist war, kept talking about his electoral numbers, and joked about invading Iraq again and taking all their oil this time.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:44:29 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#193218: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:48:07 PM

@Bense: Nobody here is defending the mainstream media against accusations of error and/or stupidity. After all, they breathlessly parroted every attack line against Hillary Clinton during the election, to the point where "but her emails" was playing non-stop on nearly every political news program and political comedy show. As several folks observed, the coverage of scandals during the election cycle vastly outweighed coverage of policy issues, up to and including climate change, which got exactly zero airtime on CNN and precious little on MSNBC. (We don't need to discuss Fox, obviously.)

However, the role of the political right in escalating and encouraging the "no news, only scandal" disinformation cycle of the media was and is vastly greater than that of the left, because it benefits their political objectives to have people ignoring facts.

And Trump's CIA wall speech was grotesquely insulting to everyone who'd ever worked to protect our nation's interests, so...

edited 14th Jun '17 1:54:06 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#193219: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:48:16 PM

Uhm, Capsase, LSBK, that's why we have the House, to represent us in accordance with the population of the states. Now, they really ought to uncap the number of Representatives given how much our populations have expanded, but the House and the Senate are the way they are to address the exact complaint you had about smaller states having the same weight as bigger states, and to address the opposite complaint of bigger states running roughshod over smaller ones.

Like, of all the things wrong with our government, our deliberately bicameral Congress with their representation being two for each state and then a number allotted by population is not one of them. (They really should increase the number of Representatives, though, it hasn't changed in like half a century.)

It just kind of feels like you both forgot we have a bicameral Congress for some reason and I'm confused.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:49:25 PM by AceofSpades

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#193220: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:51:05 PM

I'm sorry, but there's nothing sacred about states as representative entities, and the insistence that there should be is one major cause of the fact that Republicans are able to control our government with a minority of voters.

The way the Senate is constituted gives vastly more weight than is proper to lines drawn on maps, such that a citizen of Montana effectively has many times the vote of a citizen in California. Remember when we got all mad about certain Americans counting for only three fifths of a vote? Well, the ratio is way worse now.

What's weird, though, is that the Senate is actually less screwed up than the House. The latter ought to be proportional to overall population, but is completely bollixed due to gerrymandering enabled by Republican control of state governments. This is yet another argument for why "states' rights" are so antithetical to democracy.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:52:54 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#193221: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:51:12 PM

[up][up]My post basically says the same thing as yours.

[up]If nothing else, uncapping the number of representatives should practically be much easier than changing the number of senators each states get. But Like I said, if it's between getting rid of the senate and changing the number, I think it would probably be better to just scrap it all together.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:54:05 PM by LSBK

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#193222: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:52:23 PM

@LSBK, @Aces: It's fair, or at least semi-sensible to suggest the senate should be substantially less proportional than the House; giving an extra senator per 10 million state residents to pull out a completely arbitrary and very conservative (in the sense that it doesn't constitute a very radical change in real terms) idea would only add 11 senators, and would only shift the balance of power towards democrats by a single seat (California would get 3, Texas 2, and New York, Florida, Georgia, Ohio, Illinois and Pennsylvania would get 1)

There's the tyranny of the majority and then there's 8% or so of the population having as much of a say as the remaining 92%; that's not simply a super-majority, that's a society wide consensus with some localized stragglers.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:57:26 PM by CaptainCapsase

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#193223: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:53:07 PM

As an outside observer, I must say that the electoral college and senate fixed seats seem like perfectly reasonable institutions... for the time and place they were introduced, where the difference in size and population was far smaller and worrying about a tyranny of the majority wasn't going to be flipped into vast power concentrating in the smallest minority.

Fast forward two hundred years and attempting to treat all states as political equals is a farce, especially when it comes to anything that needs state by state approval. You can deny a supermajority with less than 8% of the population.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#193224: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:55:49 PM

@Capsace: Frankly, I'd rather reduce the power of the smaller states than increase the power of the larger ones. But honestly, the Senate is not the biggest problem these days. That honor goes to the House of Representatives, and you can't blame that on "one state, two votes".

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#193225: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:56:50 PM

We talk about Hodgkinson being an extremist but except for the fact that he quit his job, took a gun and opened fire on Congressmen I'm not so sure he was from what's been seen. Unpleasant and had anger management issues but not further left than Sanders himself.

What I do suspect is that he was isolated and angry and while probably not mentally ill, not in the greatest of mental places.

@Bense: "The Washington Post blasting Trump for giving a speech in front of the "sacrosanct" CIA Memorial Wall. Obama did the same thing without complaint. "

It was a big deal because Donald was firing the initial shots in his ongoing war with the intelligence community over the Russian affairs and he spent much of that speech basically telling them they were shit, IIRC.


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