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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#193176: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:34:57 AM

Nah, they're just using it as an excuse to silence their critics.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#193177: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:37:08 AM

You're right. Now the GOP us suggesting that Congressman should be allowed to carry weapons. Ignoring the fact that there were already armed officers there.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#193178: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:37:53 AM

The point wasn't that Rodgers was inspired by the GOP directly, but that a lot of the discourse and talking points Rodgers espoused in his manifestos have their roots in right-wing talking points and implicit messages in their statements. The alt-right is really just a new way of presenting reactionary far-right ideas to make them "cool" and "edgy".

There is a very well-documented history of the GOP appealing to the racial anxieties of white voters in order to gain political leverage (which yes, on some level does include the dangers minorities pose to white women), a strategy that GOP strategists have also admitted to in the past. So it isn't merely an assumption.

I should also mention that we have discussed the bigotry and hipocrisy of certain segments of the left multiple times, but that's not particularly relevant to the discussion and just comes across as a deflection.

edited 14th Jun '17 11:44:09 AM by Draghinazzo

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#193179: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:46:12 AM

Why am I feeling that the GOP is getting more militant with such statements?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#193180: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:50:55 AM

Well, one of their just-barely-shy-of-overt goals is to militarize U.S. culture, making sure that white America is constantly armed and trigger-happy with respect to defending its privilege. In this way, the Second Amendment will come to supersede the First.

edited 14th Jun '17 11:51:33 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#193181: Jun 14th 2017 at 11:52:13 AM

I said "give a shit about," not "propose gun control in response to." The specific case here being their calls for unity and decrying of Democrats as responsible for the shooter, when you can be damn well certain they do ever6thing in their power to sweep right-wing shooters' connections to them under the rug, just as you are doing in response to the Rodgers example.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#193182: Jun 14th 2017 at 12:12:06 PM

Love how a white guy who politically supported another white guy, shoots a bunch of white guys, allegedly because of the fear and rhetoric of one white guy...

Isn't being called a terrorist.

lmfao.

America.

New Survey coming this weekend!
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#193183: Jun 14th 2017 at 12:13:26 PM

Like I said, there's no such thing as white terrorists

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#193184: Jun 14th 2017 at 12:17:11 PM

[up] You're right. A terrorist is a terrorist no matter the race, gender or religion.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#193185: Jun 14th 2017 at 12:28:11 PM

@Tactical: Some members of the GOP are definitely calling him a terrorist. That said, from what I recall that black ex-marine who shot (and killed!) a bunch of police in Dallas and the handful of followup imitators were only occasionally characterized as terrorists; it's frequently little more than a dogwhistle for "Muslims", as opposed to black nationalists, revolutionary leftists, right wing militia groups, the KKK, and so on.

They certainly aren't falling back on the characterization of the attacker as a lone wolf, and are definitely trying to pin it on the democrats. Meanwhile some democrats are toying with the idea of trying to pass the blame to Sanders and other leftists in the party coalition because the entire organization is still frozen in the goddamn primaries.

edited 14th Jun '17 12:33:19 PM by CaptainCapsase

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193186: Jun 14th 2017 at 12:54:27 PM

I generally stay out of the political threads, but I would like to mention a few points, from a minority (on this site, at least) point of view:

1) It's far too early to call for gun control when we don't know how Mr. Hodgkinson obtained his firearms and whether he violated the current laws. If he was already breaking the law when he got them then obviously more gun control laws wouldn't have deterred him much. One thing that is clear is that if the ballpark had been a "gun free zone" that required the capitol police to leave their firearms behind while guarding Representative Scalise then far more people would have been injured or killed.

2) Yes, this was an act of terrorism, just not Islamic terrorism. Mr. Hodgkinson appears to have been politically active for the Bernie Sanders campaign and photos have been found of him holding anti-Republican signs at protests. He was part of anti-Republican online discussion groups like "Terminate the Republican Party" on Facebook. He asked specifically if it were "Republicans or Democrats" on the field before opening fire. It seems clear he was targeting Republicans just because they were Republicans. If these facts are straight then it was a politically-motivated act of violence, and therefore terrorism.

3) While I don't personally blame Bernie Sanders (and credit to him for immediately denouncing violence) or anyone other than Mr. Hodgkinson specifically, it is difficult as a conservative to not see this shooting as at least in part a result of the overheated rhetoric that has been pouring out of "the Resistance" since President Trump's election. Personally I hope this results in something of a call on the Democrat/Progressive side to their own members/supporters to tone things down a little. I would like to see Republicans/Conservatives do the same.

No one is served by crying "Ruined Forever" over every action of the President. Sure, he's a buffoon, but I for one think the nation will survive his term.

edited 14th Jun '17 12:57:08 PM by Bense

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#193187: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:02:43 PM

Regarding 3), note that calls for violence from the right were vastly more prevalent during Barack Obama's terms and were almost never overtly censured by them. In fact, many in the GOP were tacitly or even openly encouraging them. So the "both sides do it" comparison is completely ludicrous.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:03:25 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193188: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:04:39 PM

[up]Well then it's high time to tone things down, isn't it?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#193189: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:08:05 PM

Also, just because the country probably won't be destroyed by Trump doesn't mean it won't be much worse off with many people hurt. There are genuine reasons to be constantly critical of him.

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193190: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:09:12 PM

[up]Genuine criticism is not a problem. It's what we're actually getting, where every action seems to be screamed over at length, that is a problem.

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#193191: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:09:46 PM

Yes, but the impetus to do so is 95% on the Republicans, not the Democrats, so calling on the Dems to be held responsible for rhetoric that the GOP uses far more often and loudly by several orders of magnitude is entirely misguided, at the most charitable interprettation, even with the afterthought of "oh, and Republicans too, I guess."

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#193192: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:09:54 PM

It sort of depends on what you mean by "toning things down".

As far as calls for inciting violence, I agree that isn't acceptable.

I'm not aware of any incidents of actual democratic politicians saying anything along those lines, though.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:12:54 PM by Draghinazzo

Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193193: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:11:54 PM

It's mostly not the politicians, who tend to be careful in whom they offend.

I would like to see the media in general tone down their hysteria over every Trump action.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#193194: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:12:51 PM

@Bense: It's not going to happen. This is, in essence, a struggle over the "soul" of America, and there's no longer any room for meaningful compromise to occur. Things will, in all likelihood, continue to escalate until somebody wins decisively enough to crush the other side's electoral potential by reducing the voting power of the opposing demographic blocs, or the system collapses entirely in a spectacular fashion.

In the left's case, we can at least hope that disenfranchisement would entail reforming the archaic electoral laws our political systems depend on which give an disproportionate voice to the rural states of the country, in contrast to the right, which needs to make the system even more unfair to achieve the same end.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:48:00 PM by CaptainCapsase

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#193195: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:14:00 PM

One thing that is clear is that if the ballpark had been a "gun free zone" that required the capitol police to leave their firearms behind while guarding Representative Scalise then far more people would have been injured or killed.
"gun free zones" apply to security guards/police?

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#193196: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:14:32 PM

Well where does the line between hysteria and harsh but fair criticism begin? You aren't exactly being very specific. If you could give an example of something Trump did that was mostly a non-issue but which was blown up it might be easier to have this discussion.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#193197: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:14:52 PM

[up][up]Nope, only civilians.

edited 14th Jun '17 1:15:03 PM by LeGarcon

Oh really when?
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#193198: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:15:07 PM

From what I've heard, the Democrats or Republicans question was from some random person who saw the baseball practicing, not the shooter- it's one of those things that quickly gets confused in the "fog of war".

And I don't really see how there's any need for apology or toning down of rhetoric. As I noted before, it's quite surprising to me that someone whose political rhetoric was about organizing at the ballot box and who was involved in politics would engage in political violence. It really seems like a first, as mass shooters, regardless of politics, are almost invariably loners whose political engagement was restricted to more extreme, conspiracy-theorist stuff, and who were shunned by those they interacted with.

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#193199: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:15:38 PM

[up][up]Just as I thought. Well there goes that argument.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193200: Jun 14th 2017 at 1:19:27 PM

No, Gun Free Zones usually exempt police, but there have been calls for them to be excluded too from places like churches and even schools.

Representative Scalise only had a security detail with him because he's the Majority Whip, and therefore in the Presidential Line of Succession. If he hadn't been present there likely would have been no armed officers present and things would have ended up a lot worse.


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