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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#192801: Jun 11th 2017 at 5:40:55 PM

[up]No, I get that. What I don't get is why they somehow think their current crisis is going to improve without changing the current situation, or even how this even nets political gain.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#192802: Jun 11th 2017 at 5:41:36 PM

Joke's on them - this is the United States. We're used to stupidly low voter turnout and people abstaining because they think it gives them the moral high ground.

It's been fun.
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#192803: Jun 11th 2017 at 5:50:22 PM

Man. The only thing that worries me about the Puerto Rico thing, is just how often people will start saying "Hey, let's take Costa Rica too. I mean. They sound the same, right?"

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#192804: Jun 11th 2017 at 6:17:51 PM

Actually, in this case the bully would be going to the UK.

Sad but true.

Do not obey in advance.
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#192805: Jun 11th 2017 at 6:55:18 PM

The president of the Popular Democratic Party, (PPD in Spanish), which favors the current commonwealth status, said after the vote that "statehood-ers shot themselves in the foot."

"Eight out of 10 voters went to the beach, went to the river, went to go eat, went to go hang out, went to church, but they sure didn't go out to vote," said PPD president Héctor Ferrer at a San Juan press conference. "Gov. Rosselló is now going to go to Washington and say this (statehood) is what people wanted. But we're going too to say no, that's not true and the numbers speak for themselves."

I think Ferrer's severely mistaken on who shot themselves. That attitude in bold is nothing to be proud of, and he's pretty much writing the handwave for why the current Congress can reject an appeal for statehood out of hand.
And in the midst of all that, NBC didn't quite manage to cover his proposed solutions to the debt problem and the commonwealth's political future if either exist.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
RhymeBeat True colors from Eastern Standard Since: Aug, 2009 Relationship Status: In Lesbians with you
True colors
#192806: Jun 11th 2017 at 7:49:42 PM

I seriously doubt all 80% of the people didn't vote out of principle.

The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#192807: Jun 11th 2017 at 7:55:20 PM

I'm pretty sure at least a third or so of the so-called boycotters were just apathetic, like most people who don't vote.

edited 11th Jun '17 7:55:36 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#192808: Jun 11th 2017 at 7:57:07 PM

The one thing I don't get about these parties is that if they could apparently so effectively mobilize people, why they didn't just mobilize them to vote against statehood.

Of course, part of it could just be what [up] said, and convincing people to stay at home/enjoy themselves is easier than convincing them to wait in long lines to take an actual stand.

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#192809: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:24:16 PM

I'm still not sure how 'we decided to not vote at all instead of voting no' is supposed to be a convincing argument.

Of course, I think the current US government also favors non-statehood, so at this rate that attitude will be validated.

It's been fun.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#192810: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:30:10 PM

There's also apparently an issue with whether this will warrant a response from the government anyway. Because the way the vote was initially set up, formal consideration was revoked. They fixed the problem, but there wasn't enough time for them to get a response back so that's up in the air.

Still, all factors involved we might be up for a surprise. Even with the low turnout there's the tactic admission that statehood was going to win anyway, no one seems to be denying that. The Democrats shouldn't be an issue, and considering how eager Trump is to do something of significance to put his name on, that might actually get the Republicans to consider it, is my current thinking.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#192811: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:30:39 PM

Thing is...does the US government really want to dismiss a result on the basis of turnout being too low?

Do they really want to open that can of worms?

Disgusted, but not surprised
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#192812: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:33:33 PM

As far as I'm concerned, if you decide not to vote when you're fully capable of doing so, you've forfeited the right to have a say in things. Like, literally, you've just said you don't care enough to have an opinion and don't care what happens.

Now the process with the current Congress is going to be a bit of a difficult one; one, it's run by Tea Part Republicans. Two, it's run by guys who've discovered that even with a majority they're having a lot of trouble passing things they supposedly agree on. (Let's not even get into the fact that a bunch of assholes are probably going to do things like complain about the fact that Puerto Rico speaks Spanish instead of English.)

[up]I'd say that most would be sensible enough not to, but there's enough idiots in Congress that I wouldn't be surprised if one of them did.

edited 11th Jun '17 8:34:24 PM by AceofSpades

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#192813: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:33:43 PM

[up][up][up] Plus the GOP brass desperately wants to remain competitive among Hispanics, and while Puerto Rico would probably vote democrat, there's at least some possibility admitting them to the union would improve the GOP's image among Hispanic Americans in general, at least to the extent of being able to pull the Puerto Rico card out to deflect from accusations of bigotry.

edited 11th Jun '17 8:33:51 PM by CaptainCapsase

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#192814: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:34:08 PM

Another interesting question; If Trump and the Republicans decide to stay silent on the Vote, should the Democrats demand that the US begin the process of adding PR as a State in 2018 and 2020? Or should they demand a 3rd Vote that might still be boycotted by the Territory supporters?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#192815: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:35:50 PM

I would be surprised if Trump would openly oppose statehood for Puerto Rico. His ego wouldn't allow him to pass up a chance at territorial expansion. "Look, I can annex stuff too, please notice me Putin-Senpai!"

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#192816: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:39:11 PM

On one hand, yes, in the other...prior to the U.S civil war, some confederate states were looking to enslave other countries to make new states out of them to have the politically superior number over the union members to politically defeat them so to speak...

So if Puerto Rico DOES lean against Trump, it might behoove him to try and keep them away...

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#192817: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:41:21 PM

As far as I'm concerned, if you decide not to vote when you're fully capable of doing so, you've forfeited the right to have a say in things. Like, literally, you've just said you don't care enough to have an opinion and don't care what happens.

Choosing not to vote is like choosing not to work: unless you're rich, you're going to get screwed.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#192818: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:53:42 PM

Disdain for the dark skinned, non-English speaking other will be reason enough for Trump and the Teapublicans to snub PR. This has happened many times before, just remember that California used to be Republican leaning until the infamous anti-illegal immigrant Proposition 187 in 1994. They promptly lost the state for the foreseeable future.

And the idea that Spanish would have to be considered an official language of the US because you'd have a state with three and a half million people added where only about 10% use English as a primary language? Where athletes learning English after they start competing in the US is considered a form of "selling out"? Republicans would lose their shit.

Edit: 3 page toppers in a row?! That's got to be some kind of record.

edited 11th Jun '17 8:54:29 PM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#192819: Jun 11th 2017 at 8:59:58 PM

The language issue actually does sound like a legit topic to discuss, but not like it would be an insurmountable problem or anything.

And, honestly, it's not like formal recognition as a state would somehow fundamentally change Puerto Rican culture or something. Also, fun fact, at this point there are more people of Puerto Rican decent on the U.S. mainland than the island itself.

edited 11th Jun '17 9:00:36 PM by LSBK

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#192820: Jun 11th 2017 at 9:01:49 PM

[up]

Also, fun fact, at this point there are more people of Puerto Rican decent on the U.S. mainland than the island itself.

Probably in part because life on the island has become increasingly shitty (possibly literally given the state of public services).

edited 11th Jun '17 9:02:09 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#192821: Jun 11th 2017 at 9:06:50 PM

I wonder if the current politicos in charge will tell PR to go screw itself...

Do not obey in advance.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#192822: Jun 11th 2017 at 9:18:36 PM

Besides the turnout numbers and potential for race issues I don't see the fiscal conservatives going for it for reasons I hope I don't have to spell out. Would the press for statehood be anywhere near as great if it weren't for financial trouble?

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#192823: Jun 11th 2017 at 9:21:13 PM

I mean, I doubt patriotic fervor is what pushed most other statehood movements. The people did it because they thought it would help improve their lives, same as here.

Of course, the current narrative and some people's rosy vision of history might make that unpopular to say, but it's the truth.

edited 11th Jun '17 9:22:08 PM by LSBK

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#192824: Jun 11th 2017 at 9:39:13 PM

There's actually historical precedent for rejecting a territorial referendum for statehood due to boycotts. I'm a bit sick right now, so I can't remember the exact details but I think it was Kansas?

A bunch of people didn't vote because they didn't support the pro-slavery constitution; and, boycotted the vote to delegitmize the constitution. Then Kansas had to rewrite the whole thing.

This situation is different, but there is a historical precedent.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#192825: Jun 11th 2017 at 9:42:17 PM

Most statehood movements were conducted under the structure of American migration and homesteading. There was an expectation, bolstered by the laws that governed Western expansion, that once a region got enough people and enough organization it could apply for statehood and be reasonably sure to get it. Texas and Hawaii are the only examples I can think of that had independent political power for a notable length of time before they became states. Texas's annexation did happen in part because the Republic was short on funds and Mexico likely willing to pounce on them if the Republic of Texas faltered. Hawaii was annexxed as a territory unwillingly but their statehood bid (after WWII; they had tried before) was largely driven by the desire for representation; that they had borne the brunt of Pearl Harbor and its citizens fought for America in the war helped their case.

edited 11th Jun '17 9:50:59 PM by Elle


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