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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#192376: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:18:40 AM

And lest we forget on the Iranian side, it's resentment over the US propping up a whole bunch of Sunni nations, something that doesn't sit well with the largest majority-Shia nation in the world.

Because lest we (and I include myself in that, European that I am) forget, the Middle East is perfectly capable of exercising geopolitical agency. Not everything is the Western powers fucking everything up. note 

edited 8th Jun '17 4:19:54 AM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#192377: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:22:50 AM

That too.

Also, Iran's previous government got a lot of domestic mileage out of "Death to America!". Ahmadinejad's rabid anti-American, anti-Semite fascism helped distract everyone from how the Guard was consolidating power.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#192378: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:25:03 AM

Turns out having everyone united against a perceived enemy works great for consolidating power behind the scenes.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#192379: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:33:25 AM

[up][up][up] Sure, but the moment we sided with Israel, we got involved in the local conflicts. And the Iran does have justified grievances in the regard.

My instinct tells me that perhaps Europe should reach out to Iran, but my mind tells me that this would mean even more complicated entanglement in local affairs.

edited 8th Jun '17 4:34:52 AM by Swanpride

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#192380: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:36:21 AM

[up] The newer Iranian regimes aren't super-concerned with Israel, at least as far as I've been made to believe. Yeah, they (like the rest of the Middle East) aren't fans, and they're a useful scapegoat for the more authoritarian elements, but they're perceived as a lesser evil compared to another Sunni state in the Middle East.

Enemy of my enemy, etc.

But compared to the dictator states in the region, Iran's doing pretty well for itself. Especially as they start to become more outward-facing.

edited 8th Jun '17 4:37:09 AM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#192381: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:37:53 AM

I'd agree with the idea of the EU reaching out to Iran.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#192382: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:41:35 AM

I'm aware that Iran has plenty of oil. But Saudi Arabia has for a long time controlled the world oil market. Saudi Arabia has more clout in OPEC.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#192383: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:45:11 AM

Well, that is the good thing about renewable energy, it really has a negative impact on the oil price. The less oil the world needs, the less power Russia and Saudi Arabia have.

Anyway, if Iran agrees to leave Israel alone (not that I am a big fan if the regime there either) and maybe loosen some of their more draconian laws, it might be possible to find common ground. If the Iran opens up and moves towards a more modern government at least as much as it is possible in their system, this should be encouraged, not by direct intervention, but by positive reactions.

edited 8th Jun '17 4:49:05 AM by Swanpride

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#192384: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:47:21 AM

Of course, lower oil price is a major reason why Venezuela is in a bind. Though it's just one of many problems and arguably not even the biggest reason.

edited 8th Jun '17 4:56:54 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#192385: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:50:26 AM

[up] Nothing against Venezuela, but one of the main reasons why I was always pleased about Germany investing so much in renewables was because it made economic sense to me (long term) and would guarantee more political independence.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#192386: Jun 8th 2017 at 4:58:29 AM

One other issue with Iran is that for a lot of the old guard in the USA, It's Personal. It's hard to look at say, "Mad Dog" Mattis and think that his antagonism towards Iran is entirely objective and pragmatic.

Disgusted, but not surprised
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#192387: Jun 8th 2017 at 5:00:51 AM

[up][up] I was pleased my government was doing the same thing. Then the Liberals decided we were too far ahead on clean energy and started to roll back the green energy funding projects.

Because they ruin things.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#192388: Jun 8th 2017 at 5:02:41 AM

[up] Ouch. Talk about Yank the Dog's Chain.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#192389: Jun 8th 2017 at 5:03:15 AM

[up][up]Wait what????

Danish politics is crazy......

edited 8th Jun '17 5:03:26 AM by Swanpride

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#192390: Jun 8th 2017 at 6:18:43 AM

[up] At some point in the mid-2000's the Liberals realized they could win basically every election in the history of ever as long as they kept the support of the (racist, nativist and a bunch of other unpleasant -ist) Danish Peoples' Party.

And since then their platform has been 'hollow out the welfare state until its organs can't support itself, let it die and privatize the whole thing.' Indistinguishable from the Tories, just not as far ahead in its evolution.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#192391: Jun 8th 2017 at 6:23:48 AM

Seems like the term "Liberal" is being used there ironically, or at least not in the sense of social liberalism. It sounds more like classical liberalism, where everybody needs to be "free" from the coercion of the State.

edited 8th Jun '17 6:24:11 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#192392: Jun 8th 2017 at 6:26:20 AM

And the best part is they're not even the most ardently liberal party in their government coalition. That award goes to the Liberal Alliance, who are libertarians in all but name and have the gall to call themselves the 'party of common sense.'

The conservative party is alright, even if I'd never dream of voting for them.

edited 8th Jun '17 6:27:17 AM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#192393: Jun 8th 2017 at 6:40:41 AM

So what's all this I've been hearing about the Freedom Caucus wanting to abolish the August recess?

"Yup. That tasted purple."
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#192394: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:14:55 AM

Seems like the term "Liberal" is being used there ironically, or at least not in the sense of social liberalism. It sounds more like classical liberalism, where everybody needs to be "free" from the coercion of the State.

Not really, it's more that Liberal in anglophone countries (except Australia) refers to very different positions than what it means in Europe. It's roughly like this:

  • Anglosphere "liberal": center-left.
  • Europe "liberal": right to center-right.
  • Argentina (maybe other parts of Latin America?) "liberal": fascist, because the term is associated with the economic program of our last dictatorship.

edited 8th Jun '17 7:15:15 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#192395: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:26:14 AM

Honestly, liberal means something differently in every country. In the English-speaking discourse "neoliberal" has become some sort of buzzword for a party which supposedly wants to deregulate and privatize everything, hence undermining the checks and balances the government has in place. For example Macron is often called a neoliberal banker, or, even more revealing, a neoliberal Rothschild banker (once you read this phrase you know that you are dealing with a racist and anti-Semite) Though liberal is actually a good word for his politics, if you use it in the German sense, where it means: very open when it comes to social issues - meaning pro-welfare state (to a degree) and pro-equality and pro-protection of personality rights (the German liberals are mostly responsible for all the data protection laws we have), but also conservative when it comes to fiscal and economic matters.

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#192396: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:40:18 AM

Watching the Comey testimony.

Opening statement by Senator says that they have no doubt that Russians launched cyberattacks to try to influence the election or undermine public faith in our institutions.

Comey won't talk about the Steel Dossier in an open setting.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#192397: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:45:08 AM

I joined a little late, I heard him say "Mr Trump was worried it would look bad on his campaign and doesn't want to be associated with it." What was that? Given the trash fire of his campaign unless it was Russian I'd be surprised by whatever one of his team did that he wanted to hide.

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#192398: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:53:53 AM

Oh, they're trying to claim that Trump only "hoped" that Comey would drop the investigation, not that he ~ordered~ it.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#192399: Jun 8th 2017 at 7:57:00 AM

[up]I saw..ugh...that sounds just like something an Evil Overlord would say. Just add the "or else".

Prez Supervillain: "I hope this Russian investigation turns up nothing, or else...'

nightwyrm_zero Since: Apr, 2010
#192400: Jun 8th 2017 at 8:11:20 AM

edited 8th Jun '17 8:11:51 AM by nightwyrm_zero


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