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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#190076: May 21st 2017 at 10:55:04 AM

Canada, along with very limited citizen donations (unions and companies can't do it at all), assigns election money via reimbursements (up to 50%). Parties need a 2% share in the last national election, or 5% in a given riding, to qualify. Parties that spend more, and get more donations, get larger rebates.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_political_financing_in_Canada#Electoral_expense_reimbursement

Now, US elections are more multifaceted and the local parties more integrated with the federal ones, so I'm not sure if this would work. Definitely wouldn't work out with the 18 month election period.

edited 21st May '17 10:56:05 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#190077: May 21st 2017 at 10:55:33 AM

LSBK: I know debates are about getting the audience on your side and not about changing the person's mind. Fact is, a good chuck of America finds insults a better way to do that. So if that is what we have to do that is what we have to do. Goes beyond "catharsis" if we can get the viewers at home catharsis against the person being debated against than we win.

edited 21st May '17 11:17:12 AM by Wildcard

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#190078: May 21st 2017 at 11:01:09 AM

[up]From what I've seen things like that only tend to "sway" people who were already on your side to begin with. That's not debating, it's reinforcing an existing bubble.

edited 21st May '17 11:04:07 AM by LSBK

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#190079: May 21st 2017 at 11:05:31 AM

I'd prefer the Stealth Insult if you're going to HAVE to do name calling.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#190080: May 21st 2017 at 11:16:11 AM

[up][up]That may be true but popping a bubble is pretty damn hard. Just look at how many Trump supporters flat out refuse to accept that they elected a trainwreck of a president that's probably guilty of treason. At a certain point you have to just write them off as a lost cause and worry about shoring up your own support and converting people that are on the fence.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#190081: May 21st 2017 at 11:21:09 AM

[up]At what point did I talk about converting die-hard Trump supporters? You guys are talking as if "calling out" these people will make people on the fence more in tune, but from what I've seen that usually just makes a lot of people go "now you're just as bad as them" or whatever.

When I referenced a bubble, I wasn't talking about the Trumposphere.

edited 21st May '17 11:22:11 AM by LSBK

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#190082: May 21st 2017 at 11:26:32 AM

Emotions running high.
Three-word summary of American political discourse for the last four months seven months year or so decade fuck it you get the idea.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#190083: May 21st 2017 at 11:30:52 AM

There's over 300 million people. That's just too many people to visit.

Why? As the number of constituents rises so does the number of activists you can get out knocking on doors. I'm not talking about the candidate visiting every household, but it's entirely possibly for a large enough campaign team to have someone knock on every door, you just need enough volunteers.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#190084: May 21st 2017 at 11:33:02 AM

Fair point but not everyone has that many volunteers. Unless it's a huge race you probably have a few dozen people max compared to thousands of constituents.

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#190085: May 21st 2017 at 11:43:49 AM

A single-payer health care system would pay for itself.

You would get a tax hike, yes, but it would be less than what you are currently paying in health insurance, so your disposable income would go up. (No. Your employer is not paying for your health insurance. It is part of your compensation. Any single-payer bill not written by an economic illiterate would compel your employer to convert it to cash pay)

This money would not be coming out of thin air, however, it would be coming from the firing of nearly a million people currently working in medical billing and related fields in the US.

Some of the excess cost of US health care is corporate profits.. but not very much of it. Most of it is unneeded paperwork at hospitals and insurance providers that a single payer system would simply not need to do. Thus the mass firings. Pretty dire firings, too, since the skills these people have would simply no longer be in demand at all. The private sector would not just magically find jobs for people with the primary job skills of "I am dead inside from spending the last decade looking for ways to deny coverage / hounding insurance companies to pay up".

So, you would have to retrain the lot of them.

edited 21st May '17 11:47:37 AM by Izeinsummer

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#190086: May 21st 2017 at 11:50:43 AM

[up] You can't enact a Single-Payer system without buying out the entire Health Insurance Industry. That's nearly a $1 Trillion extra right there. The insurance companies would absolutely have a perfectly valid case in the Supreme Court against the Government.

Not worth it.

France and/or German system would be the best approach.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#190087: May 21st 2017 at 11:52:55 AM

..Sure you can. You just announce that you are now providing health insurance. Then the health insurance companies go bankrupt the next day. This is not your problem. This is not even your *political* problem, because companies that are bankrupt do not donate to your opponents. You did not size any of their assets, because they do not own their customer base.

But even short of that, converting to the french system still gets that million billing experts fired, because France is more cost effective via standardization of the entire process.

edited 21st May '17 11:58:55 AM by Izeinsummer

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#190088: May 21st 2017 at 11:57:23 AM

These companies employ thousands of people. Entire jobs exist solely to benefit these companies. You don't just tell them that they're all out of work, tough shit. Any kind of transition would have to be to a public option with insurance as a bonus or a gradual transition over several decades.

edited 21st May '17 11:57:51 AM by Kostya

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#190089: May 21st 2017 at 11:58:15 AM

[up][up]The companies could sue the government. American law allows them to.

edited 21st May '17 11:58:24 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#190090: May 21st 2017 at 12:02:04 PM

The only thing a company could obtain in such cases is "just compensation". The US constitution gives surprisingly little restriction to taking one's property, per Kelo vs. City of New London.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#190091: May 21st 2017 at 12:04:49 PM

[up][up][up] does not work. You literally cannot improve the economic efficiency of US health care without firing them.

Their jobs are the problem. They are doing soul-killing make-work and the entire reason other countries are more efficient at health care provision is that most of these jobs flat out do not exist there, so they do not need to be paid for.

edited 21st May '17 12:05:13 PM by Izeinsummer

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#190092: May 21st 2017 at 12:06:09 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]It will not be anywhere close to the end of private insurance in the US, especially not if we go the route of "Medicare for All" and Medicare is not radically changed in some fashion (or simply replaced with Medicaid, which would not be a good idea).

Medicare currently only pays for 80% of the cost of a medical procedure that they cover, the other 20% must be picked up by the patient. Also, there are plenty of things that Medicare doesn't cover at all like dentistry, optometry, some perscirption drugs etc. There will be a large market for supplemental insurance like in many other states with Universal Healthcare (there are even already government programs in place for them).

Then there is also the fact that the government does not administer Medicare directly. Instead it contracts out to dozens of private insurance companies to do it for them. You can bet that there will be plenty of companies around that will vie for a piece of that pie.

Now whether a US Universal Healthcare system should be like this is another question entirely, but it's also the least likely scenario given how things have progressed to this point.

edited 21st May '17 12:07:36 PM by Mio

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#190093: May 21st 2017 at 12:07:10 PM

[up][up]Yeah but do you want to be the candidate that has to tell them their jobs are being eliminated? This isn't some dying industry like coal mining. Healthcare employs a lot of people. You can't just take away their means of living and call it a day.

edited 21st May '17 12:07:34 PM by Kostya

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#190094: May 21st 2017 at 12:08:35 PM

No, not all jobs - and I suspect not even most - from insurance industries will be removed by single payer. A single payer system needs accountans as well, for example.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#190095: May 21st 2017 at 12:10:09 PM

It does but who says those people want to work for the government? It's also absolutely true that the government wouldn't need every single person in the insurance industry. A good 70% or more are probably going to be jobless even if the government hires every additional person it needs from the industry.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#190096: May 21st 2017 at 12:15:12 PM

I'm reasonably sure that there are a sizable number of Americans who would continue buying private insurance if it was an option. Some for extra benefits, some out of "screw the government" principle. It wouldn't become a government monopoly overnight.

There probably would still be layoffs though and they wouldn't be hitting the executives. If you're committed to having government coverage you want grants for retraining insurance industry workers too.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#190097: May 21st 2017 at 12:15:30 PM

The problem comes in is with the Takings Clause in the Fifth Amendment. You destroy the Private Health Insurance Market, under the clause it's the "government" essentially "taking" the people that own these businesses (as shady and cutthroat as they can be), and therefore compensation would need to be paid to where the government, legally, wouldn't be liable for any extra financial burdens they encounter.

Then there's also the issue of constitutionality of potentially improperly compelling states to participate in a federal program. Every state operates Federal Programs differently, some drastically so, Kentucky being a prime example. South Dakota v Dole ruled that the Federal Government cannot conditionally use the spending power (or the power of the purse rather) to make states do something unconstitutional. If this Single Payer bill has a single drafting error it's pretty much going to FUBAR'd by conservative lawyers.

What about religious objections to certain kinds of care?

The Commerce Clause? Does the Bill address Congress' authority to regulate interstate commerce in which its the only competition, and legally speaking, no other competition CAN exist?

This is nowhere near as simple as, we just need the votes and everything will be fine.

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#190098: May 21st 2017 at 12:19:29 PM

One can't even say "But look, it works well in other countries!" since 1) they are probably ignoring the problems with said countries' healthcare and 2) as [up] points out, the USA is a different beast from other nations. Trying to get single payer to work in the USA wouldn't be like getting it to work in other countries. This is uncharted territory.

And I say this as someone who thinks single-payer is ultimately what needs to happen in the USA. But it has to be done carefully.

edited 21st May '17 12:21:14 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#190099: May 21st 2017 at 12:23:04 PM

I still think it makes more sense to just transition medicare to being a program that applies to everyone. Anyone that wants additional or more comprehensive coverage is welcome to use private plans instead. This will force private plans to be more competitive and, hopefully, cheaper without removing them entirely.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#190100: May 21st 2017 at 12:35:35 PM

[up]I'd prefer not to allow (or at least make it difficult) for people to opt out of Medicare and just leave the private industry to offer supplemental insurance. That way it would be easier to control prices for medical care then if you had private companies that could offer the complete package.


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